Piggler wrote:Post subject: Simplfied Summary versus Overly complicated book version??
Eugene, I thought you were helping me to understand this? Question by question?
Piggler wrote:Maybe the general overview of Daniel 2 could be considered the future at its 'longest' period possible.
So we move on to the general overview 'ending' given in Chapter 2.
Piggler wrote:These two senarios are highlighted by the existence of 2 Little horns or 2 Antichrists in Dan 8 and Dan 9.
Piggler wrote:Who was the Greek Antichrist in Daniel 8 IYHO?, and give a reason for your answer?
The “abomination of desolation” is certainly a reference to the abomination of idols since the Hebrew word for abomination has this specialized meaning (2 Ch 15:8; 1 Ki 11:5,7; 2 Ki 23:13,24; Isa 66:3; Jer 7:30, 32:34; Ezk 20:7,8,30; Da 11:31, 12:11; Ho 9:10; Zec 9:7).
The Adventist commentary, Symposium On Daniel, p. 442, says: “The Greek phrasing of Mt 24:15 does not derive from 8:13 or 9:27. It more closely resembles that of Dan 11:31 [‘Theodotion’]. It is identical with Dan 12:11.”
Shortly after the death and resurrection of Jesus, the mad Emperor Gaius Julius Caesar Germanicus - nicknamed Caligula ("little boots") - attempted to desecrate the Temple. Everywhere else in the Roman empire subjugated peoples had been forced to conform to the cult of Rome and acknowledge not only Caesar as Lord but also fall into line by adopting the Roman pantheon of gods. The Jews had been left alone and it was time they began to conform. Caligula gave an order to set up his statue in the Holy of Holies in the Temple:
"Now Caius Caesar did so grossly abuse the fortune he had arrived at, as to take himself to be a god, and to desire to be so called also, and to cut off those of the greatest nobility out of his country. He also extended his impiety as far as the Jews. Accordingly he sent Petronius with an army to Jerusalem to place his statues in the temple, and commanded him that, in case the Jews would not admit of them, he should slay those that opposed it, and carry all the rest into captivity."
The Roman writer Tacitus adds that Caius commanded the Jews to place his effigies in the Temple. Josephus records that the Jews pleaded with Petronius not to do this. The Jews in their stubborn monotheism were willing to sacrifice their whole nation before they would allow the Temple to be defiled. Petronius marveled at their courage and ceased with the process so confrontation was temporarily averted. An enraged Caligula commanded that Petronius be put to death. Josephus records that Caligula himself died soon thereafter and due to bad weather at sea, the letter ordering Petronius' death arrived three weeks after the news arrived of Caligula's death. Petronius was not executed and the Temple was spared this particular abomination.
"But it happened that those who brought Gaius's letter were tossed by a storm and were detained on the sea for three months, while others who brought the news of Gaius's death had a good voyage."
Something nearly like this happened in 40 a.d. when Caligula was the Emperor of Rome. He was a madman and decided to set up a statute of himself in the holy place of the temple in Jerusalem. He sent the statue by ship on its way down to Jerusalem, but he died before it arrived and they never set it up.
Gaius Claudius Caesar Germanicus “Caligula,” adopted son of Tiberius (reigned 37 - 41) “whose uncontrolled passions resulted in manifest insanity; noted for his cruelty and tyranny; was assassinated.” Caligula ordered his statue to be set up and worshiped in the Jerusalem Temple, but was murdered before it came to pass.
In AD40 the Roman Emperor Caligula ordered the erection of his own statue in the Temple. He already had his own Temple in Rome, in which stood a golden statue of himself to which sacrifices were daily offered by a college of priests, wealthy Romans who paid 80,000 pounds each for the honor.
To Jews from Alexandria, he said: "You alone refuse to acknowledge me as a god, while every other nation of the earth adores and worships me as such; but you reserve your worship for a God Whose very Name you do not know"; and then, stretching his arms toward heaven, he uttered unrepeatable blasphemies.
Petronius, governor of Syria, set artists to work on a colossal statue of the emperor in gold; and advanced towards Jerusalem with a powerful army, Caligula having authorized him to use half the imperial forces in the East to crush all resistance. But Petronius suddenly found himself surrounded by a vast multitude of suppliant Jews, unarmed, and prostrate before him, and ready themselves to be sacrificed if only he would spare their beloved Temple, and who gave themselves to passionate entreaty for forty days.
The Syrian governor reported the cause of the delay to Caligula; who (according to Josephus) was so enraged that his reply, in consonance with Roman etiquette, left Petronius no choice but to commit suicide; but the unhappy governor was saved by receiving the news of Caligula's death before the Emperor's letter reached him (Ewald's History of Israel, vol. vii, p. 243). Caligula had been suddenly murdered in Rome: his was not the time, nor was he the man to erect his statute in the holiest spot in all the world -- "the abomination of desolation standing IN THE HOLY PLACE" (Matthew 24:15).
NOTE: Some scholars think this idea may have been influenced by the plan of the Roman Emperor Caligula to set up a statue of himself in the Temple around A.D. 40. If Caligula had gone through with it, Jews and Christians would have regarded the statue as an "abomination of desolation," a desecration of the Temple (see Daniel 11:31 and 12:11, which probably refers to the government-imposed worship of the pagan god Zeus in the Temple around 167 B.C.).
So great was the caprice of Caligula in his conduct towards all, but especially toward the nation of the Jews. As he was excessively hostile to these, he appropriated their places of worship to himself in all the cities, beginning with those at Alexandria, filling them with his images and statues. For having permitted it when others erected them of their own accord, he now began to erect them by absolute command. But the temple in the holy city, which had been left untouched as yet, and been endowed with privileges as an inviolable asylum, he changed and transformed into a temple of his own, that it should be publicly called the temple of Gaius the younger, the visible Jupiter.
Source: Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History; translated from the original with an introduction by Christian F. Cruse, Pub by: Baker Book House, June 1984; p 56... Eusebius Pamphilus was Bishop of Caesarea.
Piggler wrote:I see that, Daniel 8 did not happen in full, because Dan 7 happened in full
Ellen White wrote:We have no time to lose. Troublous times are before us. The world is stirred with the spirit of war. Soon the scenes of trouble spoken of in the prophecies will take place. The prophecy in the eleventh of Daniel has nearly reached its complete fulfillment. Much of the history that has taken place in fulfillment of this prophecy will be repeated. In the thirtieth verse a power is spoken of that "shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant." [Verses 31-36, quoted.]
Piggler wrote:time for tough questions, are there any?
Piggler wrote:How do you reconcile your view with these statements of EG White? - on the one hand she says Dan 11 was fulfilled and did happen in a certain way, and will continue to be fulfilled completely with a repetition of similar scenes, and your idea that Dan 11 and was a cancelled conclusion that did not happen as foretold.
We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. —Counsels to Writers and Editors, p. 37.
In the 1888 edition of the Great Controversy, Ellen White wrote:The woman, Babylon, of Revelation 17, is described as "arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness. . . . And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots." Says the prophet, "I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus." [REV. 17:4-6.] Babylon is further declared to be "that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth." [REV. 17:18.] The power that for so many centuries maintained despotic sway over the monarchs of Christendom, is Rome. The purple and scarlet color, the gold and precious stones and pearls, vividly picture the magnificence and more than kingly pomp affected by the haughty see of Rome. And no other power could be so truly declared "drunken with the blood of the saints" as that church which has so cruelly persecuted the followers of Christ. Babylon is also charged with the sin of unlawful connection with "the kings of the earth." It was by departure from the Lord, and alliance with the heathen, that the Jewish church became a harlot; and Rome, corrupting herself in like manner by seeking the support of worldly powers, receives a like condemnation.
Babylon is said to be "the mother of harlots." By her daughters must be symbolized churches that cling to her doctrines and traditions, and follow her example of sacrificing the truth and the approval of God, in order to form an unlawful alliance with the world. The message of Revelation 14 announcing the fall of Babylon, must apply to religious bodies that were once pure and have become corrupt. Since this message follows the warning of the Judgment, it must be given in the last days, therefore it cannot refer to the Romish Church, for that church has been in a fallen condition for many centuries. Furthermore, in the eighteenth chapter of the Revelation, in a message which is yet future, the people of God are called upon to come out of Babylon. According to this scripture, many of God's people must still be in Babylon. And in what religious bodies are the greater part of the followers of Christ now to be found? Without doubt, in the various churches professing the Protestant faith. At the time of their rise, these churches took a noble stand for God and the truth, and his blessing was with them. Even the unbelieving world was constrained to acknowledge the beneficent results that followed an acceptance of the principles of the gospel. In the words of the prophet to Israel, "Thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty; for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord God." But they fell by the same desire which was the curse and ruin of Israel, —the desire of imitating the practices and courting the friendship of the ungodly. "Thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown."
Many of the Protestant churches are following Rome's example of iniquitous connection with "the kings of the earth;" the State churches, by their relation to secular governments, and other denominations by seeking the favor of the world. And the term Babylon—confusion—may be appropriately applied to these bodies, all professing to derive their doctrines from the Bible, yet divided into almost innumerable sects, with widely conflicting creeds and theories. —Ellen G. White, GC88, pp. 382-383.
In the 1911 edition of the Great Controversy, Ellen White wrote:The message of Revelation 14, announcing the fall of Babylon must apply to religious bodies that were once pure and have become corrupt. Since this message follows the warning of the judgment, it must be given in the last days; therefore it cannot refer to the Roman Church alone, for that church has been in a fallen condition for many centuries. —Ellen G. White, GC, p. 383.
Piggler wrote:She also says, that scenes similar to those already fulfilled in Dan 11 will be repeated. I take that to mean historical scenes relating to the papacy during medieval times will be repeated in a similar fashion when its wound will be healed.
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