Rapture Questions

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Rapture Questions

Postby Eugene Shubert » Fri Jul 12, 2002 2:17 am

Jesus taught that the day of His appearing will be just like the day that Lot left Sodom. False teachers take this real historical analogy and fictionalize the incident beyond recognition. They teach (in essence) that the day Lot left Sodom the whole city was thrown into confusion and panic because of reports that Lot had vanished mysteriously.

Do you think that anyone in Sodom expressed any sort of anxiety that Lot was missing? Do you believe that anyone there had 24 hours before filing a missing person’s report? Please realize that there wasn't enough time. Sodom was destroyed on the same day!

Luke 17:26-30:

“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
“It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
“It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.”
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Postby dedication » Fri Jul 12, 2002 1:40 pm

The next verses contain the "key texts" for the "rapture" idea.

Luke 17:34-36
In that night there shall be two men...one taken, one left....
Two women grinding togehter...one taken, one left....
Two men in the field...one taken, one left....

But then comes an interesting text?

Luke 17:37
And they asked, "Where Lord?

The people listening to Jesus sermon, were curious, WHERE will those who are taken, be taken to?

And the Lord gives an interesting answer:

Luke 17:37
Where ever the corpse is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Yikes, that does not sound like rapture at all, that sounds more like Revelation 19:17,18
"An angel cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls..."come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God that you may eat the flesh of kings, ...captains...mightymen and the of men both free and bond, both small and great..... "

But let's not stop there-- for there is another gathering to a different supper--the marriage supper of the Lamb. "Let us be glad and rejoice for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife has made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white; for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (Rev. 19:7-8)

The big deception of the "rapture" theory, is that people think they will have another chance--
However-- at that time people will be either at one supper or the other--there will be no second chance after that.
Now is the time to make that choice!
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Postby gillespie9669 » Sun Jan 18, 2004 8:53 am

The Secret Rapture Theory- Biblical or Fiction?
See also the web site Truthleftbehind.com

The secret rapture theory is based on eight premises that have been so widely embraced that most people accept them as fact without pausing to investigate. However, our only safety is to search the Scriptures daily to determine whether those things are so (Acts 17:11). The eight points of the secret rapture theory (concerning the Second Coming of Christ, and the “catching up” or “rapture” of the saints) are as follows:

1. The rapture is silent.
2. The rapture is invisible.
3. The rapture leaves the wicked alive.
4. God removes the righteous to protect them from the tribulation.
5. Christ's second coming will be in two stages: (1) the secret rapture, and (2) the actual coming, which will be glorious.
6. These two stages of the second coming will be seven years apart.
7. The rapture will take place before the revelation of the Antichrist, who then will bring about the tribulation.
8. The wicked will at this point have a second chance to be converted and to serve Christ.
To examine these points fully is beyond the scope of this limited presentation, but we will briefly cover each point here. Prepare for some surprises!

1. The rapture is not silent, but rather is extremely noisy. It is precisely at the rapture (gathering of the saints, dead and alive) that the following does occur .The Scriptures say Jesus will descend "with a SHOUT, with the VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, and with the TRUMP OF GOD." 1 Thessalonians 4:16, emphasis added. David says, "Our God [Is. 25:9] shall come, and shall not keep silence: ... it shall be very tempestuous [violent, whirling] round about him." Psalm 50:3. And Jeremiah says, "The Lord shall roar from on high, ... he shall mightily roar...; he shall give a shout. ... A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth." Jeremiah 25:30, 31. Nothing about it is quiet! Christ will come with a noise heard around the world. His coming is SUDDEN, “like a thief in the night”, bringing “SUDDEN DESTRUCTION” (since a thief “cometh [SUDDENLY] to kill, steal, and destroy”. 2 Peter says (in 2 Peter 3:10) that His coming will be “like a thief in the night”, but notice carefully what happens to signal this thief-like coming- “the heavens shall pass away with a GREAT NOISE!! Seems as if the Bible is seeking to be emphatic about it being no secret at all!! The emphasis is on suddenness and surprise, NOT SILENCE!! Remember the loud sounding trumpet of God at Sinai in Exodus 19? That should wake us up as to what this “trump of God” at “the Coming of the Lord” will be like. See Exodus 19:16, 19.
Mark this well. If you are living when Jesus returns, you will hear Him come. Your ears will ring with catastrophic noise before the saints are “raptured”. Notice too that these sounds and noises all occur before and during the dead are being raised and the saints are being changed “ in the twinkling of an eye”, and NOT after!! The bodily change is what occurs in an instant, or “the twinkling of an eye”, and NOT the rapture itself as so many believe, but can’t find a Scripture which says so!!

2. The rapture is not invisible; all will see it. In fact, the Bible forever settled this by saying, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him." Revelation 1:7. Note the word “Him” in your memory well. Rest assured, if you are living at Jesus' second coming, you will see Him come, whether you are ready or not (of course the lost will be slain by this sight)!
Also, all of the angels will come with Jesus (Matthew 25:31). One lone angel appeared at Jesus' resurrection, and his brightness was so overpowering that the entire Roman guard fell to the ground as dead men (Matthew 28:2-4). Consider the staggering brightness of all the angels of heaven! Added to the glory of the angels will be Jesus' own glory (Matthew 25:31) and the glory of His Father (Matthew 16:27). The brightness will be overwhelming. Since angels are also called “saints” in Deut. 33:2 (in theK.J.V.), then this fully clears up whom Jesus will come with in Jude 14 and 15 (not the secretly pre-“raptured” earthly saints, but the heavenly ones who are simply literal angels). Jesus added, "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Matthew 24:27. Secret? By no stretch of the imagination.

3. The rapture does not leave the wicked alive. They are slain at the Lord's coming (See 2 Thess. 1:7-10; Isaiah 11:4; Malachi 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:8).

4. God does not remove the righteous from the tribulation, but rather protects them through it (Psalm 91:5-12). See the web site truthleftbehind.com for details.

5. Christ's second coming will not be in two stages--one secret and the other seen by all. There is only one second coming, and it will be seen by every living person on earth. There is no Scripture to support a two-phase second coming. The Bible declares, He will come “a SECOND time” (Heb. 9:27) to issue rewards to ALL (Rev.22: 12); not a third!!

6. The secret rapture teachers claim that there is a seven-year period between the two (2) second comings of Christ (if there is ever such a thing as ”two second comings”). This is not scriptural. No clear Scripture says this, just the twisted interpretation (by some) of certain prophecies in Daniel, which must be seen only through the eyes of the interpreter, and NOT by the clear word of God. Why ignore the clear Scriptures presented here so far in favor of the vain imaginings of some far-off prophetic interpretation of Daniel 9 by some? Also, of course, it would mean that the wicked now hearing this false doctrine over the media would KNOW precisely the WHEN of their coming destruction, and the end of the world. It would be, by this doctrine of satanic heresy, “seven years after the rapture”. What would be really unexpected or sudden about this to them? “Oh what a tangled we weave…”
Immediately after warning about tricky false prophets and deception, Jesus Christ said, "Wherefore if they say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:26, 27, emphasis added). Here Jesus draws a razor-sharp contrast between false views of His return and the truth. When it comes to false views, don't miss that little word "secret." Jesus plainly warned that people will mistakenly "say" His coming will be in "secret” evidenced only by vanished Christians. In fact, based on the context, we discover that this will be one of those powerful delusions, which only God's faithful elect will avoid. So how should we respond when people say Jesus' coming will be in secret? Christ's answer is stunning. Jesus said, "Believe it not"! Why? Because "as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Far from being a secret event, the return of Jesus Christ will be like the brilliant flashing of millions of lightning bolts blazing across the sky because all will see “Him” coming, and NOT just the after evidence of His coming (Rev. 1:7).

7. Antichrist does not appear three and one-half years after the second coming of Jesus. He has been active for centuries (1 John 4:3) and is doing his nefarious and deceptive work even now.

8. The wicked will not have a second opportunity to be saved after the second coming. All sinners will be destroyed at the second coming at the “rapture”. There is no second opportunity for anyone after Jesus' second coming (Rev. 22:12).
Derrick Gillespie (First labelled "SDA", THEN, "Pseudo-SDA", and then "Impolite". What label next?)
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Postby postrib » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:35 pm

From the post in this thread made on Jan 18, 2004 7:53 am:
". . . The rapture does not leave the wicked alive . . . "

There will be unbelievers “left” at the second coming (Zechariah 14:16; compare Matthew 24:40), “heathen” nations who will not come up to worship Jesus without great punishment (Zechariah 14:17-19), unbelieving nations which believers will rule over with a rod of iron during the millennium and break to shivers like a potter’s vessel (Revelation 2:26-27). And there will be a Jewish remnant in Jerusalem which will be provided a way of escape from the wrath of the second coming (Zechariah 14:5) who will be allowed to come to faith in Jesus at His second coming (Zechariah 12:10-14).

From the post in this thread made on Jan 18, 2004 7:53 am:
". . . God does not remove the righteous from the tribulation, but rather protects them through it . . . "

Regarding God’s protection of the saints, during the tribulation only some saints will be protected (Revelation 12:14) while other saints will be imprisoned and killed (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13), many by being beheaded (Revelation 20:4). This is also how it was during the first century persecution of the church: only some saints were protected (Revelation 3:10) while other saints were imprisoned and killed (Revelation 2:10), many, like the Apostle Paul, by being beheaded.

My concern with the view of miraculous protection for all believers is the same as my concern with the pre-trib view: both views attempt to give the church a false hope that it won’t have to suffer during the tribulation. When this false hope fails, my fear is that some in the church could then be offended with God for allowing them to suffer during that time; or some in the church could even be deceived into thinking that the enemy has been able to somehow thwart God’s will. But if we enter into the tribulation knowing that we must endure unto the very end, and that God has clearly warned us ahead of time of this fact, we will then be much better prepared to suffer with patience and faith, no matter what happens.
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Postby gillespie9669 » Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:23 pm

postrib wrote:
From the post in this thread made on Jan 18, 2004 7:53 am:
". . . God does not remove the righteous from the tribulation, but rather protects them through it . . . "

Regarding God’s protection of the saints, during the tribulation only some saints will be protected (Revelation 12:14) while other saints will be imprisoned and killed (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13), many by being beheaded (Revelation 20:4). This is also how it was during the first century persecution of the church: only some saints were protected (Revelation 3:10) while other saints were imprisoned and killed (Revelation 2:10), many, like the Apostle Paul, by being beheaded.

My concern with the view of miraculous protection for all believers is the same as my concern with the pre-trib view: both views attempt to give the church a false hope that it won’t have to suffer during the tribulation. When this false hope fails, my fear is that some in the church could then be offended with God for allowing them to suffer during that time; or some in the church could even be deceived into thinking that the enemy has been able to somehow thwart God’s will. But if we enter into the tribulation knowing that we must endure unto the very end, and that God has clearly warned us ahead of time of this fact, we will then be much better prepared to suffer with patience and faith, no matter what happens.

I respectfully acknowledge your clarification, and expansion on my point here. Can't say I disagree with you in this instance. Of course you would have been speculating that it was my intention to insinuate that the righteous will be miraculously protected from all harm during the final Great Tribulation. YOU AND I DO SHARE THAT THEY WILL GO THROUGH THAT PERIOD, JUST LIKE THE WICKED, BUT THE RIGHTEOUS WILL NOT FEEL THE FULL WRATH OF THE SEVEN LAST PLAGUES, AS THEY ARE POURED OUT ON THE WORSHIPPERS OF THE BEAST, AND HIS IMAGE. That was my purpose in quoting Psalm 91:5-12. However I do admit that the saints will suffer persecution at the hands of the wicked, probably before and during the pouring out of the seven last plagues of Rev. 16. This prophecy is yet to be fulfilled, and I will not be too dogmatic about the action sequences and details.

I however don't subscribe to the view that SOME of the wicked will be left alive on the earth during the millenium (your first, but unquoted objection outlined in your post), simply because Matt. 24:40 teaches no such thing (you have misapplied that text), and also because the Bible prophecies an emptying of the earth at the coming of Jesus, resulting directly from Jehovah's wrath upon the living wicked (2 Thess. 1:7-10 and 2 Thess. 2:8), and the public, noisy and visible 'rapturing' of the saints AT JESUS' COMING. They will be taken away to Heaven for one thousand years. Thus the earth will be left desolate for many generations. This emptying or desolation of the earth is what will symbolically "bound" Satan during the millenium. He will have no one to tempt or influence until the wicked dead are once again resurrected at the end of the millenium. But, you may protest, who will the saints reign over during the millenium? Good question, and a reasonable objection. If you want the supporting details of this belief of mine, and how I would address this question, then I will supply it upon request.

However, I close by repeating that I most definately support your second point about the trials of the saints during the Tribulation, even if they will not be direct victims of the last plagues (similar to the scenario of plagues in Egypt just before the Exodus) .
Derrick Gillespie (First labelled "SDA", THEN, "Pseudo-SDA", and then "Impolite". What label next?)
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Jesus has updated Old Testament eschatology

Postby Eugene Shubert » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:50 pm

postrib,

It's clear that the New Testament has revised all major Old Testament prophetic scenarios. Think of Zechariah as a cancelled conclusion. There is now to be a cataclysmic end of the world (Luke 17:26-30).

You can't argue against Jesus' eschatology by appealing to prophets like Isaiah and Zechariah. All the Old Testament prophecies that predict a gradual restoration of the earth have been outdated for 2000 years.
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Re: Jesus has updated Old Testament eschatology

Postby gillespie9669 » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:35 am

Eugene Shubert wrote:postrib,

It's clear that the New Testament has revised all major Old Testament prophetic scenarios. Think of Zechariah as a cancelled conclusion. There is now to be a cataclysmic end of the world (Luke 17:26-30).

You can't argue against Jesus' eschatology by appealing to prophets like Isaiah and Zechariah. All the Old Testament prophecies that predict a gradual restoration of the earth have been outdated for 2000 years.

Well put Eugene. THIS IS MY VIEWPOINT AS WELL. So, "Postrib", you can see why the use of Zechariah to teach that some wicked will remain alive on the earth after the Second Coming, and during the entire millenium is faulty, and even contradicts Jesus' and Paul's New Testament teaching. The prophecies in Zechariah 14 were CONDITIONAL to the Jews remaining God's chosen nation, by them accepting the Messiah upon His first arrival, and fulfilling their evangelistic role in the world. Now that they have been rejected as a nation, and the Church is NOW spiritual Israel (Gal. 3:29), the prophecies of Zechariah 14 have been amplified by the gospel, and the new dispensation. So don't look for all the details in Zechariah 14 to be fulfilled to the letter. That is a false hope based upon failure to appreciate the fact above described.
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Postby postrib » Sun Mar 14, 2004 5:19 pm

From the post in this thread made on Mar 10, 2004 8:23 pm:
". . . THE RIGHTEOUS WILL NOT FEEL THE FULL WRATH OF THE SEVEN LAST PLAGUES. . . "

I agree. Before the vials of wrath are poured out (Revelation 16), faithful saints could be called by God to shut themselves in protected places prepared beforehand (Isaiah 26:20-21), just like Noah was called to shut himself in the ark before the flood (Genesis 7:1). Jesus promises a blessing to the faithful saints who are still on the earth during the sixth vial because by that time He still hasn’t yet come as a thief (Revelation 16:15).

From the post in this thread made on Mar 10, 2004 8:23 pm:
". . . the Bible prophecies an emptying of the earth at the coming of Jesus, resulting directly from Jehovah's wrath upon the living wicked (2 Thess. 1:7-10 and 2 Thess. 2:8) . . . "

2 Thessalonians 2:8 refers only to the destruction of the Antichrist at the second coming, not to the destruction of every last unbeliever on the earth. The everlasting destruction referred to in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 does not have to apply to every last unbeliever immediately at the second coming, for some unbelievers will be left alive at the second coming (Matthew 24:40; Zechariah 14:16).

From the post in this thread made on Mar 10, 2004 8:23 pm:
". . . 'rapturing' of the saints AT JESUS' COMING. They will be taken away to Heaven for one thousand years . . . "

If we endure to the end of the tribulation (Matthew 24:13), we which are alive and remain on the earth will certainly be raptured as high as the clouds to meet Jesus as He descends from heaven at the second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), but no scripture says we will be raptured all the way into heaven.

During the millennium, faithful believers will “live and reign with Christ” “on the earth” (Revelation 5:10; Revelation 20:4), breaking earthly nations to shivers with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:26-27; see also Zechariah 14:16-19; Psalms 2:8-12).

From the post in this thread made on Mar 10, 2004 10:50 pm:
". . . There is now to be a cataclysmic end of the world (Luke 17:26-30) . . . "

Passages such as Luke 17:26-30 and Matthew 24:37-41 don’t require that all unbelievers will be destroyed at the second coming just as all unbelievers were destroyed in the flood, only that the unbelievers taken away at the second coming will “know not” until they are taken away, just as all the unbelievers destroyed in the flood “knew not” until they were taken away, for Luke 17:34-36 and Matthew 24:40-41 indicate that at the second coming only some unbelievers will be taken away, while others will be left (compare Zechariah 14:16).

The strongest scriptures related to the millennium are found in Revelation 20. Because the millennium will not begin until after the second coming (Revelation 19:11-21) and after the resurrection of the church (Revelation 20:6), and those Christians martyred under the reign of the Antichrist will also reign with Christ for the thousand years (Revelation 20:4), the entire millennium must still be in the future.

From the post in this thread made on Mar 10, 2004 10:50 pm:
". . . You can't argue against Jesus' eschatology by appealing to prophets like Isaiah and Zechariah . . . "

The prophecies of Jesus and the prophecies of the Old Testament are not contradictory, but complementary, for all scripture is inspired by God and is profitable (2 Timothy 3:16), including the Old Testament prophecies (2 Peter 1:21), which shall stand forever (Isaiah 39:8) and which cannot return void (Isaiah 55:11). Jesus expressly indicates that His purpose is not to destroy the Old Testament prophecies, but to fulfill them, for heaven and earth cannot pass away until everything in the Old Testament has been perfectly fulfilled (Matthew 5:17-18). This is why we must still believe all that the Old Testament prophets have spoken (Luke 24:25; Acts 24:14) and be mindful of and take heed to the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets as unto a light that shines in a dark place (2 Peter 1:19-21; 3:2), and why we must still look forward to the second coming and to the subsequent times of the restitution of all things which God has spoken by the mouth of His holy prophets since the world began (Acts 3:21).

From the post in this thread made on Mar 11, 2004 5:35 am:
". . . the use of Zechariah to teach that some wicked will remain alive on the earth after the Second Coming, and during the entire millenium is faulty, and even contradicts Jesus' and Paul's New Testament teaching . . . "

The truth is that neither Zechariah nor any other Old Testament prophecy contradicts any teaching by Jesus or any other Apostle.

From the post in this thread made on Mar 11, 2004 5:35 am:
". . . The prophecies in Zechariah 14 were CONDITIONAL to the Jews remaining God's chosen nation, by them accepting the Messiah upon His first arrival. . . "

Actually, no scripture says, requires, or even suggests that the prophecies of Zechariah 14 were conditional to anything, for there will be a Jewish remnant in Jerusalem which will be provided a way of escape from the wrath of the second coming (Zechariah 14:5) who will be allowed to come to faith in Jesus at His second coming (Zechariah 12:10-14; compare Romans 11:25-29; Isaiah 59:20; Isaiah 27:9-13).

May God reveal to all of us the truth regarding these matters.
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Postby Eugene Shubert » Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:57 pm

postrib wrote:The everlasting destruction referred to in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 does not have to apply to every last unbeliever immediately at the second coming

The text says specifically that this everlasting destruction takes place at the Second Coming:

"These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed" (2 Thessalonians 1:9-10).

If you read carefully, the text identifies the persons targeted for eternal destruction at this time. They are "those who do not know God" and "those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus" (2 Thessalonians 1:8). The text does not say ‘only some of those.’

To make these points exceptional clear, please note the obvious parallel between 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 and Romans 2:5-10:

For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10. NASB.

But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Romans 2:5-10. NASB.


I hope you've noticed that both passages specify only two mutually exclusive judgments. There is only eternal life or wrath and indignation.

postrib wrote:some unbelievers will be left alive at the second coming (Matthew 24:40; Zechariah 14:16).

There's no mention of unbelievers surviving anything in Matthew 24:40. Let's be reasonable. If you're going to use popular presuppositions about the Second Coming, then you're obligated to answer dedication's comments about the parallel passage in Luke 17:34-37. I believe her commentary is correct.

postrib wrote:no scripture says we will be raptured all the way into heaven.

Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. John 14:1-3.

Where do you think the Father's house is?
Note that the New Jerusalem descends from heaven to earth after the millennium (Rev 21:1-3).

postrib wrote:The prophecies of Jesus and the prophecies of the Old Testament are not contradictory, but complementary

The essence of Biblical eschatology is the irrefutable, self-evident revelation of multiple scenarios. Take the book of Daniel for example. Daniel 2 and 7 presents an outline of 4 world kingdoms before the world comes to an end. In Daniel 8 and 11, the appointed time of the end comes at the end of the third world kingdom (Daniel 8:17,19).

The book of Revelation updates all this with three scenarios.

We are now living in the final scenario. This is no contradiction. It's contextual realism.
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Postby postrib » Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:28 pm

Greetings in Jesus' name,

From the post in this thread made on Mar 17, 2004 8:57 pm:
". . . The text [of 2 Thessalonians 1:9-10] does not say ‘only some of those.’ . . . "

Indeed not. But this still doesn't require that the everlasting destruction referred to in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 has to apply to every last unbeliever immediately at the second coming. Likewise, when we look at a similar verse, Revelation 19:18, just as the "all men" doesn't require that all believing men will be eaten by the birds, so it doesn't require that all unbelieving men will be eaten by the birds. Revelation 19:18 refers only to all the unbelieving men gathered in the armies that are slain in Revelation 19:19-21. It doesn't refer to every last unbeliever on the earth, for some unbelievers who aren't in the armies will be "left" alive (Matthew 24:40; Zechariah 14:16).

The post-trib view allows for there to be a millennium. The millennium of Revelation 20 must occur after the second coming of Revelation 19 because the millennium won't begin until after the resurrection of the church (Revelation 20:6), and those Christians martyred under the reign of the Antichrist will also reign with Christ for the thousand years (Revelation 20:4).

From the post in this thread made on Mar 17, 2004 8:57 pm:
". . . two mutually exclusive judgments . . . "

No scripture says or requires that any unbelievers will be eternally judged immediately at the second coming. 1 Corinthians 4:5 and 2 Timothy 4:1 show that believers will be judged at the second coming, but Revelation 20:7-15 makes clear that unbelievers won't be eternally judged until after the millennium and the battle of Gog and Magog.

From the post in this thread made on Mar 17, 2004 8:57 pm:
". . . There's no mention of unbelievers surviving anything in Matthew 24:40 . . . "

There is. If you notice Matthew 24:31, the elect will be gathered together at the second coming; it doesn't say that the elect will be either taken or left (Matthew 24:40), so that phrase can refer only to unbelievers who are taken and left. At the second coming, some unbelievers will be taken to where the birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28; Revelation 19:21), while other unbelievers will be left alive (Zechariah 14:16-18).

Just as Christ's kingdom exists now in heaven (Revelation 3:21), and exists now within our hearts (Luke 17:21), so Christ's kingdom will exist "over all the earth" during the millennium (Zechariah 14:9-21; Psalms 2:8-12; Micah 4:2-3), during which time resurrected believers will "live and reign with Christ" "on the earth" (Revelation 5:10; Revelation 20:4-6), breaking earthly nations to shivers with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:26-27). During the millennium Jerusalem will be made very holy (Zechariah 14:20-21; Isaiah 4:2-6).

From the post in this thread made on Mar 17, 2004 8:57 pm:
". . . you're obligated to answer dedication's comments about the parallel passage in Luke 17:34-37 . . . "

Please see the paragraph above in this post which references Luke 17:36-37.

From the post in this thread made on Mar 17, 2004 8:57 pm:
". . . Where do you think the Father's house is? . . . "

New Jerusalem. John 14:3 in no way teaches a rapture into the third heaven, but rather refers to the second coming ("I will come again"), when we will be raptured up to be where Jesus is in the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). Once we are in the clouds with Jesus, no scripture says that we will be taken all the way into the third heaven, for Jesus and we must descend to reign on the earth for the thousand years (Revelation 20:4; Revelation 5:10). After the thousand years are expired, and after the battle of Gog and Magog and the white throne judgment (Revelation 20:7-15), we will then live forever in the Father's house, New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2-3), where Jesus has prepared an eternal place for us (John 14:2).

From the post in this thread made on Mar 17, 2004 8:57 pm:
". . . the appointed time of the end comes at the end of the third world kingdom (Daniel 8:17,19) . . . "

Do you mean that Daniel 8:23-25 refers to the end of the Grecian kingdom?

If so, I agree that the four kingdoms of Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 refer to four main empires that would successively control the land of Israel from the time of Daniel until the second coming (Daniel 2:44-45; 7:14):

1. The Babylonian Empire (Daniel 2:37-38; 7:4).
2. The Empire of Media and Persia ("inferior," Daniel 2:39; 7:5; compare Daniel 8:20; 11:2).
3. The Grecian Empire ("brass," Daniel 2:39; 7:6; compare Daniel 8:21; 11:3).
4. The Roman Empire (Daniel 2:40-43; 7:7).

Even though each of the first three empires was defeated by their successor to where they lost their control of the land of Israel, all of the first three empires continued to exist as rump kingdoms, if only as provinces of their occupier’s empire, just as they continue to exist today in some form (e.g. Babylon continues today as the sovereign nation of Iraq; Persia continues today as the sovereign nation of Iran; Greece continues today as a sovereign nation; and Rome has continued in the form of the sovereign nations of Western Europe, the Middle East and North Africa). This is why Daniel 2:44-45 says that the second coming will occur "in the days of these kings" and will break in pieces and consume "all these kingdoms," and why it doesn't say that the second coming will occur only "in the days of the fourth king" or will break in pieces and consume only "the fourth kingdom"; and this is why Daniel 7:12 says that even after the first three kingdoms have their dominion (empire) taken away, they themselves will continue to exist ("their lives were prolonged").

Daniel 2:41-42; 7:7-8 shows how the fourth kingdom will continue in power even until the second coming. While the ancient Roman Empire was the iron legs of Daniel 2:33, ultimately separated as two legs into two parts: Western and Eastern (Byzantine), Daniel 2:33, 41-42 goes on to refer to two feet and ten toes that would ultimately come from the two legs but which would be a mixture of iron and clay; and Daniel 7:7-8; 7:24 refers to ten horns that would arise from the fourth kingdom. These ten toes and ten horns (compare Revelation 17:12-14) could be two different symbolic expressions of the same ten major nations in contemporary Western Europe, the Middle East and North Africa (the former extent of the ancient Roman Empire) that would ultimately arise from the ancient Roman Empire still being separated as two feet into two parts. These ten nations may possibly be, just for example, the iron of Germany, France, Italy, Spain and Greece (representing one "foot," i.e. Western Europe); and the clay of Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and Libya (representing the other "foot," i.e. the Middle East and North Africa), the men of which nations will try to cleave together but will have difficulty doing so (Daniel 2:43; e.g. see Germany’s social difficulty absorbing a great number of Turkish immigrants, France’s social difficulty absorbing a great number of North African immigrants, etc.).

Daniel 7:8; 7:24 refers to an eleventh "little" horn which is "diverse" (i.e. separate) from the other ten horns which will arise and uproot three of the ten horns; Daniel 8:22-23; 11:4 refers to the four parts that the Grecian Empire broke into after the death of Alexander, saying that in the latter time a powerful figure will arise from this area; and Daniel 11:5-45 refers to two of these parts, the southern (Egyptian) and the northern (Seleucid) parts, saying that the powerful figure will arise from the northern part and attack the southern part (Daniel 11:21-25); so that these passages could refer to a powerful figure who will arise from a "little" part of the Seleucid portion of the former territory of the Greek empire (possibly Lebanon) who will take control of three of the major nations in the Middle East (possibly Iraq, Syria, and Egypt). This powerful figure is the Antichrist himself who will reign for three and a half years and blaspheme God and physically overcome the church (Daniel 7:20-21; 7:24-25; 8:24; 11:32-36; Revelation 13:5-7); he is the beast who will be cast into the fire at the second coming (Daniel 7:11; 8:25; 11:45; Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:8).

From the post in this thread made on Mar 17, 2004 8:57 pm:
". . . We are now living in the final scenario. This is no contradiction . . . "

We are living in the final part of the single scenario prophesied throughout the Bible via various expressions, between which expressions there is indeed no contradiction.

God bless you.
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