Thanks very much for your clarifications and additional information here Eugene, as you evidently understood from my open ended phrasings, there were several issues to me that I was suspecting would be needing further info and clarification. I decided to go by what you had posted, but from my own experience in later suddenly seeing the importance of a specific detail which I had not mentioned in a previous documenting of a vision or dream, I readily do understand how some of my assuming or straightforward comments can jog your memory as to what exactly the case was. And I fully expected that you could make such specify corrects. I trust that you can see that I was all along fully trusting you on this matter because the “natural”, judicious, investigative/interrogative thing to do would have been to first ask you about what I saw would be needing more information so that, if I later had made an interpretation which you objected to, you then would not be, effectively “changing your story” by providing details which would avert that interpretation. So I am trustingly fully believing that your corrections and specifications here are indeed the Truth.
And I am finding these added and specifying information to be very enlightening and helpful, and I will address them here with the necessary posting. For the sequitur record, as I was initially responding and reacting to what you had made public, I will leave the initial response to your dream “as is” on my blog post, except for a few technical corrections in regards to major typos. However I will be posting a highlighted link to the corrections and restatements that I will be making here based on what you have later specified.
(By the way, I do want to apologize for the typos in my post. I usually don’t have the time to do the added proofreading and editing following my first wave of writing, but when I notice then in rereading certain parts of it, I usually do make the corrections, yet primarily to the ones which may lead to a substantive misunderstanding.)
To keep the size of my response here to a minimum, I will not always be also quoting my initial responses in this follow up. (I have also highlighted, in bold, other questions that come to my mind as I am responding here). And I am saying much here, indeed much, much more than I thought I would need to when initially starting to respond here, because your dream is indeed packed with applicable prophetic insight, which to me, is a quite striking demonstration of Divine origin, as similarly seen in the panoply of understandings, as well as harmonious multiple applicability in especially the signified prophecies of Revelation. I similarly have had visions/dream which lasted less then 10 minutes but then took up to 3 hours of Bible study and writing to fully unpack.
NJK Project wrote:I am understand that you seated on a dazzling white seat involves you there considering yourself to be in the right/righteous place
Eugene Shubert wrote:No. In the dream, I only considered myself a passenger that was absolutely astonished at the unspeakably beautiful interior of the car and especially the perfect whiteness of the backseat that I was sitting on.
Evidently I did not properly convey my thoughts here and perhaps the typo editing of that statement as follows [bolded words] would have help:
NJK Project wrote: I am understanding that you being seated on a dazzling white seat would interpretively/spiritually involve/imply you there considering yourself to be in the right/righteous place, ...
As I intending in my interpretive
meaning, which at the very is what I am seeing is the involve situation for a secondary fulfillement of your dream, which is indeed derived on the involved symbology here of ‘a prominently highlighted seat
’, and the color white (righteousness). My question here then is, was only the back seat white or was that the color of the other seats also and also the interior’s finish, or perhaps you just didn’t notice?
If only your seat was white and/or you did not notice the color of the other seats (I assume you took notice of the interior’s color as you were astonished by it), then that would actually be highlighting the understanding that you are being represented here as being in the “right/righteous” place. (= “perfect
whiteness”). Indeed just based on the account of your real life experience before, the fact that you were consulting with various SDA leaders with your newly discovered Biblical understandings implies that you did consider yourself to be in the right place. In fact, from other postings on your site, especially your “”
, despite your radical differences with the SDA Church, including your manifest view, as I gather from here
that the GC has lost its Divine authority, your are effectively still considering to be yourself to be in the “right” place, which also involves the “righteous” place given the also involved circumstance that you are not seeing a better other place to go to, as you are also preaching to ‘Not Draw Apart From The Church’. I can understand that stance, and I had it for a while until I saw that the SDA Church was, as your dream involves, in verity ‘completely immobilized’, and, also drawing from the intrinsic natural implications in your dream, with the Church leadership (=Pastor C) evidently not interested in moving on, as they evidently have no idea of how to get to where they are to go, (and actually as you also do not know, since, obviously, you are not shown to be resolving the directional impasse here), then the only way to get to that place, and that would be, if you did know the way there, would be to hitch a ride with another car. Or better yet, as God has quite evidently provided for in your dream, you could have used the beautiful horse in the corral to move on. But, you actually lawfully could not do so, as it was not your horse, and at the very least, you would have to find its owner and ask them permission to borrow, rent or buy the horse. So the interpretive theme here is ‘find another “Righteous/Gospel Church (=horse)” in order to move on’, pointedly given the depicted spuriously lingering, wasteful, immobilized and stalling stance of ‘the Church’s formal leadership’. And as I discuss in this segment
in my blog post on the Church’s Shaking, [which will revolve around the Full Truth of God’s Sabbath - i.e., Isa 58|Matt 25:31-46], the full revelation that was give to Ellen White on this issue of whether or not to leave the Church was all dependent on whether or not there was a clear and present/tangible need
to do so. I objectively see that there has long been that need as the Church and its leadership is insistent on not using all of its various Institutional, Human, Financial and Technical resources to try to achieve Christ’ full Gospel Mandate, preferring instead to limit those resources to the mindset and policies of the capitalistic (or, at best “mixed economy”, -which is still predominantly capitalistic) world. So, as involved in your dream, if one want to move on here, they really have no choice but to “hitch another ride”....and actually know how to get to where they were going.By the way...where is it exactly that you all were going??
So all this to say that, as I am interpretively seeing/understanding it, you there were indeed considering yourself to be either in the “right” and/or “righteous” (i.e., ‘best possible/known’) place. And being a passenger in any car inherently involves a level of deferential trusting the driver and/or other leading ones in the car, particularly if you actually have the means to travel alone to where you need to get to. And if you are riding along with that group because you do not have those independent means, which I am perceiving, indeed based on your real life account where you were, and that orderly, seeking/needing the approval/recommendation of hierarchal (conference) “superiors/leaders” in the SDA Church, is that you were actually here “needing” to hitch a ride with those others, and manifestly also involving that you yourself did not know how to get to where it is that you were headed to.
And to give a Biblical precedence that it is not evil to leave the Church when there is that tangible need. God was shown to Ezekiel, and Eschatological prophet, that He had gradually, officially left the Most Holy Place (Ezek 10:18), then, almost immediately, Temple precincts (Ezek 10:19); and then the city of Jerusalem (Ezek 11:22-23), leaving it to its decreed fate of utter destruction. And later on Jesus deliberately and perfectly followed that departing sequence (Matt 23:37-24:2) even ending up on that same Ezek 11:23 Eastern Mountain, the Mount of Olives, from where He then firmly pronounced the destruction of Jerusalem and prophetically set forth the new course which would follow. (Matt 24:3ff). Similarly, our “Church” should be wherever Jesus/God actually is (i.e., wherever His full Truths are practiced and upheld) and not to any man-made organization or building.
Eugene Shubert wrote:Although most convertibles are probably sports cars, this vehicle had the appearance of a presidential limousine
Interesting specification.... I did indeed think that a regular sedan could be instead be involved here, but certainly not a presidential limo. And what then immediately struck me here is that fully substantiates my perceived understanding that this car ride was representative of the 4 major entities which comprise the SDA Church, namely: Lay Members, Lay Workers, the Leadership, which, symbolically, actually could, and indeed should, here be “downgraded” to merely: the “Pastoral Leadership”, and oddly/strikingly enough, in regards to the horse, which is symbolic of the quite largely encompassing symbol of ‘the Church at Work (=Militant)’. The presidential limo here would be pointing to the Church’s administrative leadership led by its various (conference) presidents. And with this being the all-encapsulating symbol here, it is showing how dependent the entire Church is on Godly presidential leadership, which quite naturally is indeed the default dependent order of things. Yet with the “Pastoral Leadership” (=Pastor C) being depicted here as being the one responsible to get the Church to where it is supposed to go, but atrociously failing here, and though the Lay Membership is evidently the driver here, but still completely dependent on driving/destination information and guidance on the Pastoral Leadership, the main fault here is indeed on the Pastoral Leadership. Indeed you clearly did experience that in real life because from what you stated, it was because Pastor C failed in completing the recommendation communication that he had said he would dom and also as the reason given was that he himself now had objections to your view, and your bypassing dealing with other SDA leaders, namely scholars, which are actually themselves types of Pastors (~a ‘High Pastor’ just as in the Priest/High Priest relationship, and it is interesting to note that probably all current dedicated SDA Scholars start out their ministerial training by aiming to become a pastor but later dedicate themselves to the field of Scholarship/Teaching, (-that was my own university progression)), then the main failure in all this which brought this expedition of yours in the dream to a screeching halt, was squarely on these various levels of “Pastoral Leadership”. In fact, this sequitur and evidently interpretive understanding here perfectly corroborates my cause-effect view posted in this post
which pointed out how greatly dependent the SDA Church is on “Pastors” in regards to “New Light”, particularly because of the, actually spurious and indeed quite dysfunction in practice, Local-to-General hierarchal way in which it considers “grass root” claims of New Light, including prophetic claims.
The symbol of a ‘convertible presidential limo’ itself naturally immediately struck me as the ones the U.S. used to have, prior to the JFK assassination. Indeed I do see this historical allusiveness as being quite contributive to a spiritual understanding here as the JFK incident marked, for obvious, reasons, the last time a convertible limo was used to drive the U.S. President around and this indeed radically marked off the end of an age of Domestic
innocence in the United States (the 1941 Pearl Harbor attacks had marked off the loss of its International
age of innocence). And I have seen (in an historical TV episode on the creation of the Police’s S.W.A.T. (Special Weapons and Tactics; =and not Swift Action Team) units, formal historico-sociological claims to the fact it was the JFK assassination, with its immediate suspicions of a Royal American Coup d’etat (i.e., by the CIA) which engender a rise in common (i.e., vs. criminal) American civilians, not trusting government and law enforcement authorities and arming themselves to resolve issues themselves. So, spiritually speaking here, with you being in such an “age of trust and innocence” presidential limo here, that indeed reflects how you then were deferentially trusting in the SDA Church leadership for guidance. But, as with you striking out in real life to establish your own ministry to teach what you were seeing were Biblical Truths, you have since lost that innocence and deferential trust in, at least the human elements of the Church, which actually, incontrovertibly, comes to include the entire physical Church itself.
Eugene Shubert wrote: on the outside while its dimensions and roominess in the back seemed more carlike. It was certainly more spacious than any luxury car that I have ever been in. Pertaining to cars, the word convertible in the World English Dictionary simply means “having a folding or removable roof.”
As you stress here, the notion that was evidently was key for you to get was that though this was a presidential limo, which itself is spacious, the “available” space in the vehicle was still small and cramped and thus most definitely not conducive to comfortably accommodate a horse...convertible or not. So I am seeing here that they notion being stressed was that the White Horse, despite also being implied (though you evidently didn’t actually/concretely see
this to be case, did not have its place in that car. In others worlds, there was just no room for it (God’s Church Militant) within that system, which is the SDA’s present organizational system, yet in regards to how it is being wrongly utilized to limit the natural advancement of God’s Church Militant Work. As I said in the post, the best/natural/normative way would be for each person to mount a horse (cf. God’s ideal, Righteous Church Militant in Rev 19:11-14ff), if the horse had to, as depicted, be taken along in the ride, and not try to “stuff” the horse in the vehicle/pres. limo.
(And quite evidently you were not seeing the expected long spacing between the back seating in the inside of a limo but rather the close, no lounge-spacing, quarters of the typical non-stretch sedan.)
Eugene Shubert wrote:In the dream, I did consider how a horse could possibly be positioned in the backseat with me
From this online video
), which shows a bison being transported in a convertible car, you can see how completely illogical it is to try to fit a normative/large horse in a car. In fact a horse has a slightly larger (i.e., less stockier ) “layout” than a bison, both height-wise, and most pertinently here, length-wise, and so, takes up more room. Width-wise, the horse’s body is slimmer than the bison, and so it would only be fitting in this convertible’s typical sedan back seat space if it was positioned sideways, but with you sitting on one side, that manifestly could not be his position. And that probably contributed to why you then tried to figure out, but could not begin to do so, how this could be the case, i.e., since you were taking up at least one third of that back seat area’s with.
That all spiritually/interpretively means to me that the only possible way in which the horse (=the Church Militant) could be fitted in that back seat, would be if you (=the Church’s Lay Workers) were not there. But obviously that option was not exercised which means that a most indispensable element in that SDA Organization car pool was “the Lay/Volunteer Worker”, i.e., ‘the lay member who is so dedicated to the cause that he is willing to unpaidedly, thus sacrificially, engage in the Gospel work.’ (cf. this post
And with the only other feasible configuration to carry the horse in the convertible car being, as the above video of the bison shows, the front passenger seat being removed and the horse taking up that space length wise, then either the (formal/paid) Pastoral Leadership would have to be left out or he would instead take the your place (that of the Lay Worker) and you would be left out, or the faceless driver (=(non-active) lay member) would be left out and you and the Pastor would be in the car. And that probably would be the best configuration and inclusion, i.e., the inconsequentially inactive lay member (hence their facelessness) was the one who should be dispensable here, but quite evidently, this was not the preferred case, indeed just as the Church does not mind, working-wise, inactive membership. Indeed it no longer surveys members during sabbath school to see what kind of work they are doing. And if the Jehovah Witnesses’ requirement for membership was applied to the SDA Church, where you had to be a person who is actively involved in Gospel work [let alone attending Church as SDA’s also don’t mind (see here
], then the actual membership of the SDA Church would be at best a quarter of what it presently is. Perhaps even the SOP’s “1 in 20”. So all this speaks to me on how the Church reveres its present system of condone inactive Church membership comprised of people who at best merely return a faithful tithe and offering. That is all according to a capitalistic way of doing things. God’s ideal is that the whole congregation be functioning priests, even if in courses as David later organized the priesthood. Meaning members would work for some time, but then be fully involved in ministry, or would parallely all be involved in lay ministry as well as secular work if necessary as it the case for most lay Pastors/workers.
Notwithstanding, as being shown in your dream, the most prominent problem here (indeed over all other constituency in the Church), as it indeed is the case in the SDA Church, are Pastors (=Pastor C) who do not know for sure, nay, at least effectively, even at all, how to get where they are supposed to go, effectively/literally resulting in, at best, “the blind leading the blind”.
Eugene Shubert wrote:and I did want to investigate that but I could not turn to see how the horse could fit. I do know that I tried too hard to see how the horse was positioned because when I exerted a substantial effort to look and resolve the riddle, the scene momentarily changed to me being alone in the backseat of an ordinary VW bug with high-back bucket seats. I assume that was caused by me wanting to figure something out instead of humbly receiving whatever the Lord wanted to show me.
Your default reaction here is quite interesting here, as, in agreement with what I have been saying, you did realize that something was not right, or at least normal, here. That is why you were quite insistent on trying to find out... but God would not let you. It was neither nor the time nor the best circumstance for you because if you did, you will probably see as it is quite logical that a horse just cannot be crammed in that quarter seating space. In other words, God did not want you then to see that His True Church Militant just could not “fit” in those artificial parameters as set forth and practiced by the present SDA Church. While God was clearly preventing you to see this pivotal anomaly, He actually may or may not have been the one who was instead attracting your attention to the perfect whiteness of the seat. If that diversion was not God’s doing then that whiteness was a veneerly manufactured one, by the builders of that ‘SDA Organizational Car’ and thus it actually was nothing more than a “white-wash” (cf. the prophetically pertinent Ezek 13:14-16; Matt 23:27-28) which readily “dazzled” you. (A reform is indeed needed on this and as EGW states, that pointedly involves (whatever needed) reorganization.)
It is interesting that you were perceiving all of this as a “riddle” which I see as saying/being: “How does a horse actually fit in a quarter of a car??” Truthful/Realistic Answer: “It actually just does not.” Which would explain the fact that why you couldn’t and didn’t concretely see the horse. I.e., God was actually never in that long wayward Church mis-organization, i.e., as it is currently, and that for a long time, being practiced.
It is further interesting that you ‘when you exerted a substantial
effort to try to “investigatively” “get to the bottom of” this quite manifest anomaly, you then saw yourself, effectively being “demoted” to riding alone
in a VW bug. Quite obviously that is depicting substantial loss, and also completely immobility since, if you are alone in a car, yet in the back seat, then you cannot, at least safely, be driving it. So, hopefully -for your own sake, the car is not moving at all and thus you would not be making any progress. So God was trying to show you here that if you had figured out that He/His True Church Militant was not actually at all in that limo, you would indeed have sought another vehicle, yet you then would still be in the back seat and not driving, manifestly, by being in that “back seat” still not knowing how to get to where you are supposed to go, or even if you did then, not being able to, at least safely drive to get there. So at best, you would have been the proverbial, unreliable, “back seat” driver. This indeed all reflects the perils of both a lack of proper resources as well as technical/scholarly knowledge/know-how that a lay worker can face if the decide to “strike it alone” when they realize that God is gradually and the fully, as depicted in Ezekiel 9-11, not in the present wayward Organization of the Church.
Ministry wise, I came to experience the lack of resources peril when I decided, for various quite valid, tangible, right and integrity-related reason not to go ahead and get a formal, paid position in the SDA Church as a paid pastor or teacher, which I easily could have done by completing my Andrews University Undergraduate and then Seminary studies. There was no obstacle at all for me not to do so (particularly since I would be able to get Student loans), other than the fact that I new it would be useless since I saw that virtually everything that I would be learning would have to be restudied in much more depth. It thus would be a wasteful and terrible financial investment. And so I decided to instead straightly pursue these research education needs with the non-loan funding that I could get, which admittedly was not that much. But I thus managed to not suffer as much loss in the area of Biblical Scholarship and whatever I presently scholarly do not yet know, but have seen can be ascertained through further research (cf. this related plan
, it either is not common, involved or existent knowledge in the SDA Church.
So, for your own peace of mind, as you remained within the Church proper and more than less worked according to it present organization, I see that God, (as He does many times as seen the Bible and SOP), let you assume what you did about this Divine hindrance here, and not what it quite manifestly, even, applied symbolism wise, evidently was: which is that God’s True Church Militant was actually not it that limo, however formal, official, dazzling it was as a vehicle (=organization)....In fact, with you specifying, as you do below, which is what I was actually thinking and hoping, as the beautiful horse in the corral being a white horse, then I am seeing here that this is where the white horse you were led to think was in that limo, but really was not, was all of this time, the horse which was in the corral.
Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me." (Mat 25:45)