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MParedon  
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 11:19 am    Post subject: 'Whore of Babylon' Reply with quote

I was in Barnes & Noble the other day and I saw quite a few books depicting Iraq and/or other parts of the Middle East as the Whore of Babylon. I was wondering if maybe those places are replacing the RCC as the W of B in peoples minds.

I have to admit I don't know much about the 'Whore of Babylon', I only know that I've heard the RCC being labled as such.

I was also wondering if this new W of B is distinctly American in viewpoint. I don't know if I can articulate very well why I think this, but I am troubled by it.
It sometimes seems that many people associate being Christian with being American, and while I am loyal to the U.S.A., I never really thought of God taking the American viewpoint b/c He has his own viewpoint that is bigger than one country. His people belong to all countries.

Oops, I didn't mean to get on a soapbox. But I come from the Deep South and I am confronted with these things and right now I was just hoping for other peoples thoughts and opinions.
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Clare of Assisi  
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 11:24 am    Post subject: Re: 'Whore of Babylon' Reply with quote

MParedon wrote:
It sometimes seems that many people associate being Christian with being American


I'm in Minnesota and I don't see that at all.
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Laura  
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maria,
I'm from the South, too, and I know exactly what you mean!

Unfortunately, I haven't figured out what to do about it, yet! icon_confused.gif

One bit of good news that I heard yesterday: our local homeschoolers' group is very ecumenical -- lots of families from the two Catholic parishes, but also some anti-Catholic fundamentalist families. They have gotten together, their kids are in a choir... and that choir is coming to our 9:30 mass on Gaudete Sunday to sing!

That means that a number of fundamentalist families will be attending Mass that day, with their children who are singing with us and for us. Pray for us all!
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empther  
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the time John wrote Revelations he had seen the persecutions of the Christians by Nero and later emperors. Babylon is Rome, the pagan empire.

John couldn't use the name Rome explicitly in his criticisms because it would have brought down more persecution, but everybody knew what he meant.

Revelations is difficult reading because it's hard to tell whether the stories in it refer to future events or to incidents that happened in John's time. For example: it is said the dragon or devil will be let loose for a thousand years to ravage the world. Protestant writers have a whole industry of book-writing about the "Millenium". I suspect the dragon's 1,000 year freedom is simply the devil's influence in the world throughout human history. The devil's "one thousand years" will end at the end of the world when human history on earth stops. Why would God at some future time give the devil more power that he now has?
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Jammeraj  
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Norman wrote:

Quote:
By the time John wrote Revelations he had seen the persecutions of the Christians by Nero and later emperors. Babylon is Rome, the pagan empire.

John couldn't use the name Rome explicitly in his criticisms because it would have brought down more persecution, but everybody knew what he meant


Interesting. I had never heard that before. Would you be so kind as to post some links that back that up? It makes perfect sense, but I like to see "proofs" before I go and requote something I merely read on a chat forum icon_lol.gif

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morashb  
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Art,

For an in depth discussion of the Apocalypse and the Whore of Babylon you might want to read the following book:

"Rapture, The End-Times Error that Leaves the Bible Behind" by David Currie.

You can obtain it via Sophia Press:
1-800-888-9344
http://www.sophiainstitute.com/
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empther  
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Interesting. I had never heard that before. Would you be so kind as to post some links that back that up? It makes perfect sense, but I like to see "proofs" before I go and requote something I merely read on a chat forum



It is a sign of our information-overload times that even something that "makes perfect sense" needs "proofs".

What can be proved?
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Jammeraj  
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It is a sign of our information-overload times that even something that "makes perfect sense" needs "proofs".

What can be proved?


The claim that Rome is the Whore of Babylon? Anyone can say that that is what the expression refers to, but where is the proof or the reference that would indicate thusly?

That is the problem with the Book of Revelations...everyone has a "meaning" or interpretation for a particular phrase, but no one has any proofs! Hmmmm...how are we to know which is right and which is merely someones interpretation?

And before I go around quoting something as "truth", I like to know that I can back it up with facts. That is why I stated earlier that I had not heard that Rome was considered the Whore of Babylon before your post...and, inquiring minds like mine want to know. icon_lol.gif

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gabriel  
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Norman - Re John couldn't use the name Rome explicitly in his criticisms because it would have brought down more persecution, but everybody knew what he meant. It has always been hard for me to believe that the dumbest Roman couldn't recognize that the Seven Mountains referred to Rome. I don’t see that it was a particularly Christian reference.
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Jammeraj  
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob

Quote:
For an in depth discussion of the Apocalypse and the Whore of Babylon you might want to read the following book:

"Rapture, The End-Times Error that Leaves the Bible Behind" by David Currie.

You can obtain it via Sophia Press:
1-800-888-9344
http://www.sophiainstitute.com/


Thanks bro....Semper Fi!

Peace,
~Art
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morashb  
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"... the Seven Mountains referred to Rome."

Here is something that is often overlooked. - Jerusalem was also built upon 7 hills: Zion, Acra, Moriah, Bezetha, Millo, Ophel, Antonio.

Could the "harlot" mentioned be actually referring to Jerusalem?
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empther  
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Catholic Encyclopedia gives an interpretation of the Book of Revelations:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01594b.htm


Time and time again the Encyclopedia article identifies events in the Roman Empire of John’s time as being the symbols in the book.

Excerpts:


( First of all, what is John trying to do by writing this book? )

"PURPOSE OF THE BOOK
From this cursory perusal of the book, it is evident that the Seer was influenced by the prophecies of Daniel more than by any other book. Daniel was written with the object of comforting the Jews under the cruel persecution of Antiochus Epiphanes. The Seer in the Apocalypse had a similar purpose. TheChristians were fiercely persecuted in the reign of Domitian. The danger of apostasy was great. False prophets went about, trying to seduce the people to conform to the heathen practices and to take part in the Caesar-worship. The Seer urges his Christians to remain true to their faith and to bear their troubles with fortitude. He encourages them with the promise of an ample and speedy reward. He assures them that Christ s triumphant coming is at hand.”

From the INTERPRETATION section:

“The beast from the sea that had received plenitude of power from the dragon, or Satan, is the Roman Empire, or rather, Caesar, its supreme representative. The token of the beast with which its servants are marked is the image of the emperor on the coins of the realm. This seems to be the obvious meaning of the passage, that all business transactions, all buying and selling were impossible to them that had not the mark of the beast (Ap., xiii. 17). “

..........and.............

“The seven heads of the beast are seven emperors. Five of them the Seer says are fallen. They areAugustus Tiberius,Caligula, Claudius, and Nero. The year of Nero's death is A.D. 68. The Seer goes on to say "One is", namely Vespasian, A.D. 70-79. He is the sixth emperor. The seventh, we are told by the Seer, "is not yet come. But when he comes his reign will be short". Titus is meant, who reigned but two years (79-81). The eighth emperor is Domitian (81-96).”
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blainethepaine  
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2003 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bob,

Quote:

"... the Seven Mountains referred to Rome."

Here is something that is often overlooked. - Jerusalem was also built upon 7 hills: Zion, Acra, Moriah, Bezetha, Millo, Ophel, Antonio.


and,

Quote:

Could the "harlot" mentioned be actually referring to Jerusalem?


While I am tempted to lean towards the interpretation of it being pagan Rome, I think this is interesting, especially in light of this passage:

" And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified." (Rev. 11:8)

Its not really clear if this is referring to the same city, but the fact that it is called "great" is telling. We all know Christ was not crucified in Rome, so the Jerusalem hypothesis has some backing.

Art,

Catholic answers has some good articles on this very subject. Here is one:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Hunting_the_Whore_of_Babylon.asp.
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Jammeraj  
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jack

Thanks for the link. Interesting. I also find your hypothesis that Jerusalem could be the Whore of Babylon.

Given the article you linked me too...and given your Jerusalem hypothesis, I would tend to agree with you that Jerusalem has some backing...it would make more sense, in my way of thinking, anyway...as that is where Christ was crucified.

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angel1  
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2003 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jammeraj wrote:
Jack

Thanks for the link. Interesting. I also find your hypothesis that Jerusalem could be the Whore of Babylon.

Given the article you linked me too...and given your Jerusalem hypothesis, I would tend to agree with you that Jerusalem has some backing...it would make more sense, in my way of thinking, anyway...as that is where Christ was crucified.

Peace
~Art


Babylon is Iraq, (ancient) The Garden Of Eden is in Iraq, The Babel Towers, Euphrates River, and Tigris River, which is mentioned in Revelation is in Iraq...Revelation 16 : 12, it all began in Iraq, and I believe will end in Iraq...

Angel
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Eugene Shubert  
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 12:25 am    Post subject: The "Jerusalem" interpretation Reply with quote

Quote:
Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. Revelation 11:8. NIV.

I also see this verse as confirming the "Jerusalem" interpretation. Isn't the hint obvious? The prophet Isaiah, speaking to the people of his own day, said:

"Hear the word of the LORD,
You rulers of Sodom;
Give ear to the instruction of our God,
You people of Gomorrah."
Isaiah 1:10.

Likewise, Ezekiel speaks of his own people figuratively as being in Egypt (Ezk. 23:3,8,19,27).

Another clue is that Babylon is represented as a harlot (Revelation 17). The parallel is that Ezekiel made frequent use of this figure as a symbol of God's apostate people (Ezk. 16).

However, I think that the strongest argument for Jerusalem interpretation is Revelation 18:24. In speaking of Babylon, the angel says:

"In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth" (Revelation 18:24).

This is unmistakably similar to Matthew 23:32-36:

"Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation." Matthew 23:32-36.

The problem, of course, is that the world didn't end in the first century, as predicted (Matthew 24:34). This is viewed as an overpowering mystery to students of Biblical eschatology. Perhaps the Church has failed to spread the gospel as Christ intended it should? How do you know that Christ hasn't announced a delay to the end of the world by presenting to us a prophecy in Revelation of a great apostasy in the Christian Church? If you don't think it's possible that God views all of Christendom as a great apostasy, then what justification can there be to think that all the accumulated guilt of world (up to the end time) still falls upon Judaism?
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drawman  
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems to me that Revelations is full of symbols that defy exact interpetations.


Quote:
"The great city"' whose name is not given, seems to be Jerusalem, which in Isaiah 1:10 is called Sodom because it has turned its back on God. However, when the writer tells us that it is "allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified" (v. 8), we may take Jerusalem here to stand for any city or even any nation where perversity holds sway (cf. Wis 19:14-17, which alludes to Sodom and Egypt) and where Christians are persecuted and hunted down (cf. Acts 9:5). Thus, St. Jerome (Epist. 17) interpeted the names of Sodom and Egypt as having a mystical or figurative meaning, referring to the entire world seen as the city of the devil and of evildoers.
Further on, St John will identify the Rome of his time with this "great city" (cf. 17:9)
.
The Navarre Bible Revelation

I will look up the Matthew verse and get back to you.
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drawman  
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The problem, of course, is that the world didn't end in the first century, as predicted (Matthew 24:34).



In Matthew 24:34 Jesus speaking of, the destruction of Jerusalem, the end of the world and His last coming, says:

Quote:
Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place


Quote:
This generation”… (Is) about the destruction of Jerusalem being itself a symbol. “This generation” refers firstly to the people alive at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem. But, since that event is symbolic of the end of the world, we can say with St John Chrysostom that “the Lord was speaking not only of the generation then living, but also of the generation of the believers; for he knows that a generation is distinguished not only by time but by its mode of religious worship and practice: this is what the Psalmist means when he says that ‘such is the generation of those who seek him’ (Ps 24:6)” (Hom. On St Matthew, 77).
The Navarre Bible St Matthew
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Fido85  
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An interesting note is that in it's early days the symbol of the European Parliment was a woman riding a beast on 7 hills.



I have heard many theories that the current EU could be a revived Roman Empire in revelation. I have actually never heard the theory on Jerusalem, don't really know what to think about it.
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Eugene Shubert  
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

drawman,

I agree that the destruction of Jerusalem is a symbol. But if it's a symbol that makes any sense at all, shouldn't it represent apostate Christians who blindly follow the established church (like the Jews did) and thus are not truly in step with following Jesus Christ? If so, doesn't that lead us to the conclusion that Babylon is apostate Christianity?

How do you characterize the mind-set of the people of Jerusalem in 70AD just before their destruction?
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drawman  
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eugene,

Do you have a particular group of apostate Christians in mind? History is not my strong point, so what was the mindset of the people of Jerusalem at that time?

Actually, I get Rome and Jerusalem mixed up, weren't they both part of the Roman Empire?
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morashb  
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eugene,

You stated, "... But if it's a symbol that makes any sense at all, shouldn't it represent apostate Christians who blindly follow the established church (like the Jews did) and thus are not truly in step with following Jesus Christ? If so, doesn't that lead us to the conclusion that Babylon is apostate Christianity?"

--------

I don't think so.

Keep in mind that "Christ established the Church" and promised that the gates of hades would not prevail against it. To follow the Church is not what will get us into trouble.

Those who were recipients of the destruction and rath were not those who "were blindly" following, but actually against those who were persecuting.

The following is suggested by author David Currie in his book, "Rapture, The End-Times Error That Leaves the Bible Behind," page 321 - 323:

The historian Josephus states the "royal city Jerusalem was supreme, and presided over all neighboring countries as the head does over the body." Jerusalem at the time was on a trade route and was relatively wealthy: "The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and bedecked with gold and jewels and pearls" (17:4).

"The sea-beast on which the harlot has been riding will change its mind about this evil woman and ultimately 'will hate the harlot ... will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire'" (17:16). ... There could be no clearer fulfillment of these verses than in the events of the decade leading up to 70 A.D. Jerusalem's Sanhedrin had sought to repress the Christians from the very first beating they administered to Peter and John (Acts 4). Three decades later, in 64 A.D, they finally convinced the Roman authorities to help them in their pursuit and persecution of the Christians. The harlot Jerusalem then rode the beast Rome into the Church's Great Tribulation. But in 66 A.D., Jerusalem revolted. The Roman Empire turned on the city of the seven hills in rage at this treachery and utterly destroyed Jerusalem and its Temple. The beast Rome did indeed 'hate the harlot ... make her desolate ... and burn her up with fire.'"
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Eugene Shubert  
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 4:18 am    Post subject: The book of Revelation defines apostate Christianity Reply with quote

drawman,

There is only one basic kind of apostate Christian. Scripture, including the book of Revelation, illustrates it clearly.

A major parallel between apostate Judaism in 70AD and spiritual Babylon today, I believe, is their irrational presumption of being secure in God's favor and at the same time being completely indifferent to God's stated requirements. For example: Imagine the reaction of the average religious Jew in Jerusalem if he had heard that his church leaders were involved in a malicious and unscriptural plot to have Jesus crucified. I bet many were quiet. God's word says,

Quote:
Nevertheless many even of the authorities believed in him; but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. John 12:42, 43.

The temptation to follow the crowd on an easy path instead of Christ (who asked us to walk in the straight and narrow way) is a common temptation. I see temptations like this as having universal applicability.

We are not to suppose that the book of Revelation has lost its relevance. Evil still exists. The whole world is being guided toward apostasy. Revelation 14:6-12 is a present-day warning against it. This warning from God is important because eternal destiny is determined by how these messages are received. It defines apostasy. Those who fall for Satan's temptations will be lost. Those who resist by the power of God will be saved.
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Bill Hatfield ObOSB  
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 4:24 am    Post subject: Re: The book of Revelation defines apostate Christianity Reply with quote

Eugene Shubert wrote:

The temptation to follow the crowd on an easy path instead of Christ (who asked us to walk in the straight and narrow way) is a common temptation. I see temptations like this as having universal applicability.


That is why this forum is full of good Catholics, they down want to follow the crowd on the easy path.
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drawman  
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eugene,

The book of Revelation is definitly a call to conversion. Wherever the whore of Babylon is, there will be fire and brimstone.
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eightfoot514  
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eugene Shubert wrote:
I agree that the destruction of Jerusalem is a symbol. But if it's a symbol that makes any sense at all, shouldn't it represent apostate Christians who blindly follow the established church (like the Jews did) and thus are not truly in step with following Jesus Christ? If so, doesn't that lead us to the conclusion that Babylon is apostate Christianity?

This presents quite a conundrum. The established Church is visible throughout the New Testament.
Quote:
Acts 2:42-44 They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common.

Quote:
1 Timothy 4:14 Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.

Quote:
Matthew 18:17-18 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Among hundreds of other references to the established structure of the Church, it is obvious that the bible does not condemn the Church. To say that the Church is apostate Christianity is to reject Church authority. To reject Church authority is to reject the bible, since the bible came out of the Church. To reject the bible is to reject the book of Revelation, so the apostate theory doesn't matter since we've already rejected the book itself.

It just doesn't work. icon_wink.gif
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Eugene Shubert  
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eugene Shubert wrote:
drawman,

I agree that the destruction of Jerusalem is a symbol. But if it's a symbol that makes any sense at all, shouldn't it represent apostate Christians who blindly follow the established church (like the Jews did) and thus are not truly in step with following Jesus Christ? If so, doesn't that lead us to the conclusion that Babylon is apostate Christianity?

morashb wrote:
I don't think so.

Keep in mind that "Christ established the Church" and promised that the gates of hades would not prevail against it. To follow the Church is not what will get us into trouble.

Those who were recipients of the destruction and rath were not those who "were blindly" following, but actually against those who were persecuting.

The prophet Jeremiah wrote:

"A horrible and shocking thing
has happened in the land:
The prophets prophesy lies,
the priests rule by their own authority,
and my people love it this way."
Jeremiah 5:30-31.

There are many instances in history where Protestants, Muslims and Jews have reverently submitted their minds to their "spiritual leaders" who were, in fact, deceiving the people with corrupt doctrines. And their priests approved! Surely you don't mean to imply that somehow Catholics are free from deception and that the Catholic priesthood is beyond corruption?

I take it from your response, for example, that Catholics deny that the Church once sold indulgences and that credulous and superstitious people were never led to purchase indulgences in place of trusting in the grace of God?
http://www.everythingimportant.org/theReformation
Have you ever read Luther's 95 theses? I haven't met a Catholic yet who has said that these famous charges were fabrications.

A huge number of Jews perished in the general slaughter and destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. Most of them weren't persecuting anyone but I bet that most of them "were blindly following." Didn't they believe the lies they were taught? "Christians were heretics that had to die to keep their church safe and the society pure."
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Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.” Matthew 16:24.
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drawman  
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Joined: 20 Jul 2002
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Location: Middle Tennessee

PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eugene,

I don't see the connection regarding the Jeremiah 5:30-31 citation, because in Jeremiah 14:14-16 the prophet goes on to explain that the false prophets and their followers do not escape the wrath of God.

Quote:
14Then Yahweh said to me, ‘The prophets are prophesying lies in my name; I have not sent them, I gave them no orders, I never spoke to them. Delusive visions, hollow predictions, daydreams of their own, that is what they prophesy to you.15Therefore, Yahweh says this: The prophets who prophesy in my name when I have not sent them, and tell you there will be no sword or famine in this country, these same prophets will meet their end by sword and famine.16And as for the people to whom they prophesy, they will be tossed into the streets of Jerusalem, victims of famine and the sword, with not a soul to bury them: neither them nor their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters. I shall pour their own wickedness down on them


To answer your unsolicited comments attributing the selling of indulgences by the Catholic Church, I must caution you that it is a very common error to attribute the evil actions of some of the members of a group to the entire group.
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Steve M.
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morashb  
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Joined: 20 Jul 2002
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eugene,

You asked, "Surely you don't mean to imply that somehow Catholics are free from deception and that the Catholic priesthood is beyond corruption?"

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Catholics are not free from deception nor are are Catholic priests beyond corruption.

Something to consider is that the Church should be judged by what it teaches and not by the failure of some of its members to live up to its teachings.

This is beginning to get somewhat off track from the initial intent of this thread.
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morashb  
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Location: Camp Lejeune, NC

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eugene,

When was the Church "born?"

Who were persecuting the Church?

Who and what were destroyed in the Roman assault on Jerusalem?

Would Christ allow Satan to overcome the Church?
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