A Reform-minded Seventh-day Adventist forum In our aim to exalt everything important, first and foremost, we seek to promote a clear understanding of Daniel, Revelation, the three angels' messages and the alpha and omega of apostasy.
Joined: 09 Sep 2006 Posts: 1 Location: BayArea, CA
Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:45 am Post subject: Daniel 8, "tamiyd"
Questioning popular understanding of Daniel 8, "tamiyd". I am a poor student of Hebrew, but have used my small understanding and my OnlineBible, plus a few other tools to translate Daniel 8:10-13. Please consider the following:
THE POPULAR TRANSLATION
Daniel 8:10-13 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12* And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13* Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?. KJV
FROM THE HEBREW AS I HAVE TRANSLATED
Daniel 8:10-13 It became a great ruler of hosts, continually exalted, throwing down the holy place continually rebelling throwing down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered. a host was given continually transgressing throwing down truth, 11 until a ruler of armies grew up among them exalting himself continually, casting down the foundation of holiness 12 and the armies of the lord of the sabbath; casting them down to the ground, continually transgressing and casting down truth to the ground and doing and succeeding. 13 Then I heard one holy one speaking and he said to another holy one, to that certain one to whom he spoke, ‘How long until this vision, this continual, and this desolating transgression to put the holy and the armies of the Lord of the Sabbath trodden under foot?’
It seems to me that this makes more sense than the text where words must be supplied to imply the subject of "daily sacrifice". I haven't finished with translating Daniel 12:10-13, but will be happy to share when I do.
FORGIVE MY IGNORANCE. AS A NEWBEE I HAVE NOT YET LEARNED HOW TO FORMAT THIS PAGE SO AS TO INCLUDE THE HEBREW FONTS. BUT, IF A HEBREW SCHOLAR WISHES TO COMMENT ON THES ABOVE TRANSLATION I WILL WELCOME THE WISDOM.
Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:58 pm Post subject: The continual (tamid)
NightOwl wrote:
It seems to me that this makes more sense than the text where words must be supplied to imply the subject of "daily sacrifice".
Hi Night,
I'm not a Hebrew scholar but I believe that I understand the book of Daniel from its obvious context. It is true that the word sacrifice is supplied by Bible translators in Daniel 8:11,12,13. However, if you don't believe that the "continual" refers to sacrifices, then I think you're going to have a lot of trouble translating and interpreting Daniel 11:31 and 12:11.
The context of Daniel 8 provides a very satisfying explanation of why the word sacrifice is missing. I state the following on p. 48 of my book, The Ends of Time, Vol. 1:
The "Daily"
We have already examined several words and phrases that, if taken together, well express the anger of God over the sins of His people. The term used for the regular sacrifice continues this thought. It also sheds light on the people’s spiritual condition. Observe that the little horn always halts the “continual” and the word sacrifice does not appear in the Hebrew for 8:11,12,13, 11:31 12:11. Daniel alone, unique among all Bible writers, chose to call the continual sacrifice simply the “continual.” The very omission of the word “sacrifice” conveys the idea that this sacred ceremony would become a spiritless act of worship. The word “continual” standing alone suggests a daily “routine”. Centuries later, Jewish writers of the Talmud and Mishnah did in fact and unknowingly fulfill Daniel’s prophecy, calling the “regular sacrifice” simply the “continual”. Even Christian writers unknowingly do the very same thing (when they speak of type and Antitype) for they often refer to the “regular” sacrifices as the “typical service”. This characterization is thoroughly Biblical. In the epistle to the Hebrews, as Randolph E. Neall points out, “the old covenant, in contrast to the new, is consistently characterized as pertaining to things “daily”, “repetitive”, and “continual” (Hebrews 7:27, 9:6, 10:1-3,11 cf. 9:12,25-28, 10:9,10,12,14)” (Assize Vol 1.1, p. 31).
NightOwl wrote:
I haven't finished with translating Daniel 12:10-13, but will be happy to share when I do.
I'd be more interested in getting a comment from you on my translation of Daniel 8:14 in the thread, The Hebrew of Daniel 8:14:
And he said to me, "Till evening -- morning two thousand and three hundred, then shall holiness be vindicated."
NightOwl wrote:
Forgive my ignorance. As a newbee I have not yet learned how to format this page so as to include the Hebrew fonts.
As the support administrator of this forum, I have looked into it and was told that there is no stable way to do it. I may inquire again if you think it's essential. But since virtually no one on this forum knows Hebrew, I would prefer that you just translate each Hebrew word to its nearest English equivalent and then comment on the Hebrew grammar.
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