A Reform-minded Seventh-day Adventist forum In our aim to exalt everything important, first and foremost, we seek to promote a clear understanding of Daniel, Revelation, the three angels' messages and the alpha and omega of apostasy.
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:54 pm Post subject: Spiritism Within the SDA Church
Hi there, All!
You brother Eugene, were quite opportune in hearing those words, and although it is only four months later, we understand that Neuro-Linguistic- Programming is being taught at the Seminary, and has been taught for a number of years there, something I only heard about in 2005. I have heard there are 200 Adventists who have been credentialed to teach NLP now, and this being the case, the future [i.e., what little we have of it] speaks clearly of there being even greater amounts of Spiritism working throughout the denomination, both at the Seminary, and in our pulpits.
Lately, I have heard of another man, Dr Leland Kaiser, and a number of people have noted throughout the Interet this man is walking with demonic spirits, and having been brought into the seminary for dialog and teachings [as the word goes], this seems to be another of the mistakes the General Conference, which OKs everything, is making. I have read a little of the words spoken about what this man Kaiser teaches, and it sure sounds like the teachings of Dr Robert Shuler of Crystal Cathedral fame, which accents the direction of the mind, whether positively or negatively attuned, as well as the thought that we ARE gods making all things in this life easier to get! A deep positioning of materialism before the mind is here seen, and in this manner, those who attend such teachings are simply moving more fully into this world of which we are not to be a part! After all, are we not citizens of Another City?
Having been brought up Roman Catholic, I have always thought Adventists hardly ever mention the truth of demonic spirits about us trying to destroy, almost as if we don't speak of them, they cannot hurt our spiritual growth! This might be the reason much spiritism is now coming into the denomination - we've become such ravenous Laodiceans, we are now sure they cannot hurt us, so long as we have The Church standing behind these things! I know of these spirits, because when I was converted, there surely were a number of them forced from out my sinful life, and I've been thanking God for that since 1974!
I will now go back and look into the remarks coming from your initial statement, to see if there is something I might be able to add! I found this Forum for the first time since 2004, and by the grace of Yahweh, I will be using it much more often than over the last few years.
WalkInAgape
JimT
WalkInAgape, _________________ All of God's promises are His enablings.
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: Spiritism Within the SDA Church
WalkInAgape,
I found references which prove (when you read all the details) that the church is promoting the spiritualistic nonsense of Leland Kaiser. I made the following comment several weeks ago in another thread:
Quote:
In response to the last question, I'd answer by saying that the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists are prostituting themselves for the ungodly purpose of maintaining the illusion of there being peace in the family, an entirely political strategy. I don't know the full extent of their treason and prostitution yet but consider how the church does support and promote the spiritualistic teachings of Leland Kaiser [3] through Adventist Health Professionals Conferences. [4].
Please consider the content in those valuable links. Christians shouldn't be circulating accusations that they can't prove. What reference do you have that defines Neuro-Linguistic Programming and what evidence do you have to confirm that it is being taught at a Seventh-day Adventist institution?
Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP): New Age. Techniques developed by Richard Bandler and Dr. John Grinder that allegedly enable practitioners to read random eye movements and other visual cues during conversation or counseling to “program” a client’s behavior and restructure their core beliefs. Called “software for the brain,” it is supposed to be faster and more powerful than traditional clinical counseling and can work without the subject’s conscious knowledge. The co-founders have been heavily involved with other New Age practices. NLP failed scientific tests conducted by the U.S. Army.
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:29 pm Post subject: Spiritism Within The SDA Church!
Hi there again, brother Eugene!
Yes indeed! Those are parts of the instruction of NLP, and when one is taught only these aspects, it becomes second nature to see, to understand, then to begin manipulating, because of your actually being in on both parts of the conversation, the bodily statements [movements] speaking to you just as clearly, and sometimes even more clearly than words would do! There are other aspects of the NLP teaching, which have to do with the manipulation of great numbers of people, and so although I am not sure of the content of these techniques, it's very clear to me Jesus doesn't want that we have any part of these kinds of things! Clearly, that work which is given to only the Holy Spirit, is never to be a part of the working of the agent used for witnessing as well!
On another forum, some four years ago, I read an Adventist woman had taken courses in NLP, and in this particular post, written some two months after having taken the courses I recall, she was looking for help from the brethren at that forum, because she couldn't sleep, she was having many, and lurid pictures while both asleep and awake, and was able to recognize these things having been picked up while learning NLP.
Ten years ago, brother Eugene, we had a man who was said to be the most successful of the evangelists in Canada, come to my City to complete a seven week series. It was all very true about his abilities, for over twenty-five baptisms into the Lord Jesus were seen at the end! Prior to that, seventeen 17 was the largest number at a single series. Usually I am quite careful about my stream of words when writing, and so I will not change the adjective before the word "abilities," because I believe "his abilities" is more sure than any other manner of explaining what happened over those seven months!
Some three or four months after the series, over half of those who had become baptized Adventists were no longer to be seen, nor desiring to be seen within the Church! I used a Copernic Software search of this man's name, due to a friend having told me this same evangelist had been back to the City, and had done another course at one of the bigger hotels. I wondered why I hadn't seen him at Church, and what the other course was all about, hence the search.
Leo Scriven, along with pictures, were noted on the Internet, as a Teacher of Neuro Linguistic Programming, and he was also very successful in that activity, from what I saw of the upcoming months that noted his appearances, being busier for the NLP teaching than anything else he could do within many weeks.
I have a good friend [this friend is one of those from my past, who continued in the study of the occult, something I was deeply involved in myself, and although when we speak, he tries to get me away from the stupidity of Christianity [I still call him a friend, because he is incredibly well-read, articulate, intellectual, and would probably take a bullet for me, although we are in complete disagreement of the reasons why we are here on planet Earth], whenever I need information I can take to the Bank, this NLP teacher and humanitarian [using hypnosis professionally, to aid people addicted to cigarettes, drugs, and disillusioned due to subconscious scripts which are literal lies about ourselves learned from others during our upbringing, locked into the subconscious, and can destroy us although untrue], (although I believe being worked upon by the evil ones hosts), explained a number of occult aspects within the NLP, which he knew I had run away from after my conversion, in a two hour phone conversation. Also, knowing me ae well as he does, he laughed about some of the things that are said to be true, that people believe who are taught NLP, simply due to the paucity of understanding of the working of the mind in general -- something he said he was unsure about, for how these teachings work, is still only theory to him, and to most. Seems without solid understandings, the ability for unseen demonic entities to do their nefarious work is relatively easy!
Now, I am not coming down upon Leo, but have mentioned his name, because in 1996, he was one of the most sought after NLP teachers in North America, something I noted from the Organization! Recently [six months ago], I did another Copernic search with Leo's name, and found 80% of his former Web pages were no longer there! Hopefully, he has stopped this work, and I praise God if he has, for none can walk upon the enchanted ground, and not be hurt after awhile!
Although we who have been used as part of the work of evangelism for years, know some newbies shall leave through the back door after a full series [I believe mostly due to the lack of "drama" in the life, which is part of the excitement that is definitely felt as one learns new truths], the number leaving in that manner after these meetings, was very high. I am no longer surprised why, although I must admit, this is simply conjecture on my part!
WalkInAgape _________________ All of God's promises are His enablings.
WalkInAgape, you didn't answer all my questions. I asked for proof of your claim—that Neuro-Linguistic Programming is being taught at the Seminary. Do you have anything more reliable and accurate to share than hearsay and anecdotal evidence?
Because I have come up with that which I know to be true, I would then ask, do you have anything more than a sentence asking for more evidence, or have you the ability to show me that I am absolutely false in that which I say?
IF Leo Scriven has been proven by my own eyesight and notations, that I had on a computer that after a number of years, crashed, with even the RAM being destroyed [maybe Satan hated that which I had on there] to be a teacher, and a well-desired teacher of NLP back in 1996 as I have stated, why is it you are having trouble with believing that the Seminary and the body politic within the church, hasn't 200 teachers of such, that they might be able to use spiritism [because on the enchanted ground, they feel the NLP has a power that works through the movements they learn] to bring greater amounts of money into the Church [i.e., people with money]?
You ask me for the proof, and I ask you to disprove that which I have already noted, rather than calling it what might be noted in Court! You should recognize there might be some here, who understand the ramifications of Paul's words in the early verses of 1Corinthians 6, and expect that those of us who call each other brother ans sister, should be more able to take Paul's statements personally, anticipating truth and not hearsay, coming from the pen of the members of the forum! When I speak and write, I don't make statements as I have made, lightly, knowing I have a Father in Heaven Who does not take lightly my bringing forth words of which I truly know nothing, calling those words truth. I know the truth, and the truth has to be disproved, and not the reverse. _________________ All of God's promises are His enablings.
Hearsay isn't persuasive. Why should I be satisfied with anecdotal evidence? Christians who profess to have an important message should be able to prove what they say. I've googled for "Leo Scriven" + Adventist and was shocked to find only 5 items, all irrelevant.
I don't know you at all. You haven't posted enough around here for me to consider you reliable or on the mark or even insightful so why should I believe you? Because you profess to be a reform-minded Seventh-day Adventist? From my point of view, there are now many self-proclaimed SDAs who are fulfilling Ellen White's endtime prophecy by crying continually, "And here arises this superstition, and there arises that heresy." If Neuro-Linguistic Programming is being taught "at the Seminary," then why is it so difficult to get a course description? If NLP is useful in evangelism, why are there no references in Adventist publications shouting its praises?
No, I don't have the ability to show anyone that you are absolutely wrong in what you say. But at this moment, I do consider you to be totally disinterested in gathering provable facts.
There is no way out of this mayhem, because I was not part of this site in 1996, which is ten years ago! There were a number of personal Adventist friends who viewed all of the webpages that I found with that first Copernic search, and these were extremely upset about that which I showed them, but you will again call hearsay, any of their own confessions to that effect, if I were to call them here, because you don't know them!
There is much being kept secret by the General Conference brother Eugene, and the manner of keeping this secret, is to tell outright lies when a definitive answer is required! Such things as the SDA being MEMBERS of the World Council of Churches, is kept quite ethereal whenever anyone desires a straight answer, because when becoming such a member, there is a promise made, that there shall be no proselytizing among the denominations, which, if known and then also it becomes known the SDA Church is indeed a member, then most can add the two plus two here coming to the conclusion that as the people called forth from humanity, to bring the Four Angels' Messages into the world, we therefore have made a pact with hell in joining the WCC. It's also good to know that all National Council of Churches members are instantly members of the WCC!
Maybe you have failed to see this particular paragraph, noted from the Adult Sabbath School Bible Study Guide, of Friday, June 7, 2002:
Quote:
"Please note the following points in conclusion to this weeks study:
1. Vicarivs Filii Dei [Vicar of the Son of God]. Since the Reformation this papal title has been used to calculate the number 666. But there are several questions that should make us cautious. First, it is not clear that this title is an official one [on the contrary, these words are found without my having to do anything more than stroll to my library, and present these words: 'The letters inscribed in the Pope's miter are these: VICARIUS FILII DEI, which is the Latin for Vicar of the Son of God. Catholics hold that the church, which is a visible society, must have a visible head. Christ, before His ascension into Heaven, appointed St Peter to act as His representative . . . . Hence to the Bishop of Rome, as head of the church, was given the title, Vicar of Christ'." (Our Sunday Visitor, Catholic Weekly, "Bureau of Information." Huntington, Indiana., April 18, 1915), and please note these words totally disqualify all that is written in the conclusion of that week of Adult Study - WIA]. Second, there is no clear indication in Revelation 13, that the number is based on the numerical value of the letters of a name. The phrase 'it is the number of a man' (verse 19, NIV) could be translated, 'it is the number of [humanity]'; that is, of humans separated from God. Third, those who insist in counting the numerical value of letters confront the problem of deciding which language will be used [why not try Latin, Aramaic and Greek, the three languages above the head of the crucified Savior?]. Because the text does not identify any language [we were certain the first beast of Revelation 13 spoke of the Papacy from the beginning of our history, and the Reformers of note were certain of the same thing, that the Papacy is noted in Revelation 13 and Daniel 7, as the 'little horn'], the selection of a particular one, would be somewhat arbitrary. At the present time, the symbolism of intensified rebellion, six used three times [when have we ever taught this trash], and total independence from God seem to be the best option [now, we have the proof that being a member of the WCC, does indeed mean we cannot proselytize from other denominations, and the WCC being ecumenical, these words also show how we must now steer away from the Reformation truth concerning The Four Angels' Messages, and their identifying the Papacy as the MOTHER OF HARLOTS!]. Time will remain the full meaning of the full symbol" (Adult Sabbath School Study Guide, page 86, GREAT APOCALYPTIC PROPHECIES, April through June, 2002, Emphases and notations in brackets, mine).
You see, this evidence I am able to bring forward, because I have a copy of the SS Guide, but in Mr Scriven's case, he has been able to do a quick whitewash of the Internet as is readily done, and I cannot bring that information back [although plenty of it is here in this city, for people who attended the Series, also attended his later meetings], and because of my Computer's demise, I have not the information to now show!
However, you are found herein arguing against your initially pointing me out as only having hearsay information, and then telling me in your next retort:
Quote:
"I don't know you at all. You haven't posted enough around here for me to consider you reliable or on the mark or even insightful so why should I believe you?"
which is diametrically opposed to your initial forensic nomenclature concerning this hearsay of mine, which tells us that had you known me, you wouldn't be taking me to task about Source Documentation, but could have a civil conversation with me, sans those docs!
You know I have been here since 2004 when I first signed in as WalkInAgape, but I also lost your site with all else I had, and my present computer has all backed up at the end of my day, so that this will not happen again. I don't know about you, but I didn't have a second hard drive or a DVD writer back then, to dub the information I had sourced each day.
Also [and I say this not to hurt but to bless you, I speak to you with a full understanding that the Spirit of Christ Who indwells me, is moving me forward with truth that you will either accept or throw away, but you have not to speak to me about that, but to Almighty God, whatever your choice concerning the information might be, even as had Pilate that choice in his day, within his appointed position given to him of God for that very time, even as is your present position given to you, with this technology, for this day and this time given to you of God], a truly Christian man here on the Internet, is to accept any and all individuals with the sweet savor of Christ, right from square one, and so if you aren't teaching this single truth concerning the healthy behavior of a Christian man toward your members, especially the newer ones, what else are you teaching by your behavior, that causes your savor to be more of death unto death to all who come here [see 2Corinthians 2: 16]?
Agape,
WalkInAgape _________________ All of God's promises are His enablings.
It is widely believed that The Two Babylons by Hislop, A., is largely an imaginative work based mostly on fraud, misinterpretation and wishful thinking. [1][2]. An illustration of Hislop's scholarly incompetence might be the once popular Adventist teaching that the title, Vicarius Filii Dei is inscribed on the pope's tiara. [3]. Seventh-day Adventists now admit that there is no credible, verifiable evidence to substantiate this belief.
Is it then that you are harboring on telling me you are about to give the right arm of fellowship to that entity which was spoken of by Ellen White, as the power that would be the Antichrist of the last days, and did not only jail the true saints of God, but killed them over a period of 1260 prophetic years from 538AD unto 1798AD [killing it is estimated by some to be over 100 million true Christians] when it received its deadly wound, and, according to Revelation 13: 3 shall again bring the whole world [our future] under her power, for a period of 1290 literal days?
This latter statement is found by using the three timelines found in Daniel 12, as literal days, all three beginning from the time that Sunday observance by law shall be brought down upon the people of the US, thereafter being used by the United Nations by law as well, all over the world. _________________ All of God's promises are His enablings.
Is it then that you are harboring on telling me you are about to give the right arm of fellowship to that entity which was spoken of by Ellen White, as the power that would be the Antichrist of the last days?
No. My intent is to ask you to be intellectually honest and to remind you that you are virtually courting spiritualism because you are so willing to manufacture fanciful theories out of pure speculation. Please consider this little known directive from the Spirit of Prophecy: "We are forbidden to . . . set the imagination in a train of conjecture" (EGW).
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