A Reform-minded Seventh-day Adventist forum In our aim to exalt everything important, first and foremost, we seek to promote a clear understanding of Daniel, Revelation, the three angels' messages and the alpha and omega of apostasy.
Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:41 pm Post subject: Problem with interpreting Revelation 13
Here's the problem. I don't know if any of you have noticed this before. Here's the text of Revelation 13 L
And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast. 4Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?"
5The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. 6He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
Here's the problem I see with the current iterpretation and kind of throws everything into a flux. Papal rome does fit the description of Daniel and Revelation... [b]BUT the sequence of the events is out of order. You can see that when John sees the beastm he does not see it receiving the wound. He sees the beast as though he already had a wound and it was healed. AND THEN the power was given to him to excercise his authority for 42 months! So, althought 48 months until Napoleon's general excile fits fine, but you see that the beast stil has the power and authority and the time is well beyond the 42 months.
So you can look at it several ways:
1) John presents events waaaay out of sequence in 1 paragraph and it is fine because the events do not have to be in sequence to get across the symbolism. 48 months is part of beast's authority until he receives the fatal wound... and then he gets another part of his authority until Christ comes (which does fit with Daniel)
2) Something wrong with the interpretation and the sequence of the events needs to be take into consideration. Making a doctrine based on assumption about this matter is pretty dangerous because if one is wrong then he will be deceived thinking that he knows the truth.
Which brings me to the next point. Does Bible commands us to be so engulfed in Revelation studies that we know without a shadow of a dobt the sequence of the last events? I mean, saing that VICARIUS FELI DEI is 666 is a bit stretch to find something to fit the description it seems to me. I realize that the Papacy right now is #1 candidate for the beast of revelation... but is it the ONLY candidate? Could we be wrong? If Satan knows what we believe, can he use our doctrine against us?
Here's another problem that I've just realized we have.
"The General Conference is the highest earthly authority for the Church."
This is a bit chilling for me to discover! This is what I wound expect from to read on the Vatican web site! Do you guys believe this? Just want to make sure. The statement above should read " Word of God - Bible - is the highest earthly authority for the Church!" It's easy to control the Church by controlling the hierirchy. That's what devil has done with Rome and what makes you think he can't do it with SDAs? Just a thought.
BTW from the construction of the Dome of Rock by Abd el-Malik in 688... to beginning of the new secular state of Israel is exactly 1260 years :). I'm not quite sure what it means, but I'm sure it fits in somehow.
Does anyone have anything to say on this issue? Is there a discreptancy on iterpretation or not in your opinion? I'm seeking truth just like the rest of you. So why such silence?
Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:05 am Post subject: Vatican Beast question
aarkhipov wrote:
And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast. 4Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?"
5The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. 6He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
Here's the problem I see with the current iterpretation and kind of throws everything into a flux. Papal rome does fit the description of Daniel and Revelation... BUT the sequence of the events is out of order. You can see that when John sees the beast he does not see it receiving the wound. He sees the beast as though he already had a wound and it was healed. AND THEN the power was given to him to excercise his authority for 42 months! So, althought 48 months until Napoleon's general excile fits fine, but you see that the beast stil has the power and authority and the time is well beyond the 42 months.
So why is the enterpreted events out of sequence? Has anyone ever thought about this?
Here's our (SDA) version of the events:
1) Beast comes out of the sea
2) Beast blasphemes God and conquers saints and rules for 42 months
3) He receives a mortal wound, and it eventually healed
4) All the nations worship the beast whose wound is healed
Here's what I see in revelation
1) beast received the wound and it has healed.
2) People worshiped the beast
3) The beast was given the power to utter blasmemes and persecute the saints.
4) His rule extends for 42 months (seems like after the wound is healed) during which he conquers every country and causes all of the people to worship him with the help of the second beast it seems so.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but God does put things in certain order for a reason. Is there any explanation for this?
Hi aarkhipov,
I disagree with your interpretation. I see Revelation 13:1-3 as being in chronological order and spanning the entire history of the beast:
Quote:
Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.
I then see the verses that follow as merely giving greater detail to that introduction. For instance, I interpret Revelation 13:4 as a commentary on the universal acceptance of the beast throughout the Medieval Church age:
Quote:
So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?” Revelation 13:4.
It is easy to see how that was already fulfilled:
"The people were wholly deceived. They were taught that the popes and priests were Christ's representatives, when in fact they were the representatives of Satan, and those who bowed to them worshiped Satan. The people called for the Bible; but the priests considered it dangerous to let them have it to read for themselves, lest they should become enlightened and expose the sins of their leaders. The people were taught to receive every word from these deceivers as from the mouth of God. They held that power over the mind which God alone should hold. If any dared to follow their own convictions, the same hate which Satan and the Jews exercised toward Jesus would be kindled against them, and those in authority would thirst for their blood." Early Writings, p. 214.
Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject: Hi again aarkhipov
aarkhipov wrote:
Which brings me to the next point. Does Bible commands us to be so engulfed in Revelation studies that we know without a shadow of a dobt the sequence of the last events? I mean, saing that VICARIUS FELI DEI is 666 is a bit stretch to find something to fit the description it seems to me.
Officially, Seventh-day Adventist no longer believe or teach that the title Vicarius Filii Dei is inscribed on the pope's tiara. The reason is a good one. Adventist scholars now freely admit that there is no credible, verifiable evidence to substantiate this traditional Adventist belief. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicarius_Filii_Dei
aarkhipov wrote:
Here's another problem that I've just realized we have.
"The General Conference is the highest earthly authority for the Church."
This is a bit chilling for me to discover! This is what I wound expect from to read on the Vatican web site! Do you guys believe this? Just want to make sure. The statement above should read " Word of God - Bible - is the highest earthly authority for the Church!" It's easy to control the Church by controlling the hierirchy. That's what devil has done with Rome and what makes you think he can't do it with SDAs? Just a thought.
You are right to be chilled by that statement. It would be even more chilling to find a Seventh-day Adventist that really believes that the General Conference has greater authority than the Bible. I don't think that that is what they really mean. I think that Adventists simply mean that when the General Conference is in full session, that their administrative decisions are binding on the whole Adventist Church.
aarkhipov wrote:
BTW from the construction of the Dome of Rock by Abd el-Malik in 688... to beginning of the new secular state of Israel is exactly 1260 years :). I'm not quite sure what it means, but I'm sure it fits in somehow.
I don't think that you have anything solid there at all as far as Bible prophecy is concerned. You also made a reference to 48 months. Where did that come from?
Thank you for clarifying these. I meant 42 months (or 1260 years). That was typo.
What do you think the number of the beasts name is? Are you familiar with any work of Alexander Hislop. Although some people concider his research to be a figment of imagination, I think it makes much sence. Especially explanation of 666 and how it ties to the issue of Sun worship. Hislop is not SDA and it is encouraging to find some outside of church evidence that connects 666 and Sun worship. Nevertheless, I am not trying to be mean spirited. Just seeking the truth and asking questions.
What do you think the number of the beasts name is?
I think the number of the beast is 666.
aarkhipov wrote:
Are you familiar with any work of Alexander Hislop? Although some people consider his research to be a figment of imagination, ...
I am one of those persons:
Eugene Shubert wrote:
It is widely believed that The Two Babylons by Hislop, A., is largely an imaginative work based mostly on fraud, misinterpretation and wishful thinking. [1].
aarkhipov wrote:
I think it makes much sense. Especially explanation of 666 and how it ties to the issue of Sun worship.
In mythology Saturn is father of the gods but it's unreasonable to say that the word Saturn is the name of the beast.
What I'm talking about is not Saturn, but the Astrological beliefs of the Ancient Babylonians. The ZOdiac system essentially encodes 666 into Sun worship. I believe that calculating means essentially that... calculating. There is no refference to alphanumerics in Bible.
12 signs (Gods) of zodiac were assigned each into a 3 chambers. The chambers were given a number (1-36). The sum of all is the number of the sun. The 6x6 magic squares indeed were discovered that arrange numbers so that any row or column would add up to 111. So the sum of all numbers is 666. Interestingly enough Semiramis (whether you believe it or not) played a great role in origin of such religious system... and she just happened to be a whore .... of Babylon. So John obviously was trying to convey something here. Somehow the 666 is connected to sun worship. Weather Hislop is right or wrong there's no way of knowing unfortunatly. But his alleged discoveries do make sence, both historically and theologically.
As far as my question : what do you think the NUMBER OF BEST'S NAME is? What I meant to ask ... how do YOU calculate the name of Papacy to be 666?
What I'm talking about is not Saturn, but the Astrological beliefs of the Ancient Babylonians.
I was responding to to Alexander Hislop's view of 666, which you seemed to support.
aarkhipov wrote:
Are you familiar with any work of Alexander Hislop. Although some people concider his research to be a figment of imagination, I think it makes much sence. Especially explanation of 666 and how it ties to the issue of Sun worship.
To answer that in greater detail, I refer you to Alexander Hislop's book The Two Babylons, Chapter VII, Section V, titled, The Name of the Beast, the Number of His Name-- The Invisible Head of the Papacy. There, Alexander Hislop explains that the Pope is the legitimate representative of Saturn and the sum of the numerals of the name Saturn add up to 666.
aarkhipov wrote:
The ZOdiac system essentially encodes 666 into Sun worship.
I don't think so.
aarkhipov wrote:
12 signs (Gods) of zodiac were assigned each into a 3 chambers. The chambers were given a number (1-36). The sum of all is the number of the sun.
The sum is 666 but I disagree that the SUM refers to the SUN.
aarkhipov wrote:
The 6x6 magic squares indeed were discovered that arrange numbers so that any row or column would add up to 111. So the sum of all numbers is 666.
I don't believe that the Babylonians discovered any 6x6 magic square. I think that's an Adventist myth, published in ancient Adventist books and everywhere on the internet but with no archeological support.
aarkhipov wrote:
Somehow the 666 is connected to sun worship. Weather Hislop is right or wrong there's no way of knowing unfortunatly. But his alleged discoveries do make sence, both historically and theologically.
It's easy to recognize the truth when you see it.
aarkhipov wrote:
What I meant to ask ... how do YOU calculate the name of Papacy to be 666?
My answer to that question requires a full chapter of careful writing. I can't give away any of the details now. I have agreed to include my unique explanation of 666 in a short commentary on the book of Revelation that I plan on writing together with the founder of the Come To Christ Ministry. I don't know when our joint project will begin. Grace is very busy with her own full-time gospel witness and she doesn't even have time to write up the many wonderful things that the Lord is teaching her almost daily.
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